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Comment by timoth3y | Hacker News Reader

This is so frustrating.

Energy Star has been a huge success over the past 30 years. It's (now) widely supported by industry, has reduced the TCO to consumers for most household appliances, and results in hundreds of billions of kWh of electricity saved every year.

Energy Star is not some tree-hugging, drum-circle, feel-good program.

The US urgently needs to expand and modernize our grid. Every GW of power saved, is GW of generation and transmission capacity that we don't have to build and maintain.

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Energy Star can be frustrating as well. My latest laptop (Lenovo ThinkPad) has an Energy Star rating. To get this, they need to do things like turn off the power to the audio pre-amp if there's no sound being played. When a sound is ready to be played, latency is undesirable, so it gets pushed to the amp before the amp has powered up. The result is some fraction of a second of missing sound, and also an annoying click through the speakers when the amp is powered down after the sound stops.

I would rather have sound without these issues, even if my computer consumes an extra 100mW at idle to keep the sound system ready.

I'm aware that most sound chipsets allow a user override that keeps the circuits on, but the this newer chipset doesn't seem to implement the feature correctly. No combination of arguments to the linux sound system, or loadable modules seems to keep the sound circuits from switching to standby.

That sounds like Lenovo just being bad? Certainly they could fix the issue but instead chose the cheaper option.

The cheaper option would have been to not implement the Energy Star feature that dynamically powers the chipset on and off.

Interesting. I had similar things from other machines, and the solution is to keep a silent audio file playing in the background at all times, then there is no latency.

AFAICT my MBP M1 is energy star certified but has no such issue. Might it just be that the Lenovo has a bad implementation?

I've had problems with modern monitors shutting themselves off if they don't detect a signal in something like five or ten seconds, which is far too short when I'm trying to debug a PC having boot issues, configure a multi-monitor setup (like a 3-screen virtual pinball cabinet) or even just figure out which HDMI cable is which on the PC end. I don't mind the auto-off feature but the incredibly short time period is unnecessary and the delay time isn't adjustable (at least on the LG monitors I have).

This over-aggressiveness turns a good feature into a problem forcing me to completely disable power saving. Which is sad because the biggest savings of the feature are when a screen is left on for hours when the PC is off or disconnected (which I don't do anyway, as the entire system is on a smart power strip). A monitor should hunt for a valid signal for at least 45 or 60 seconds by default before auto-offing itself.

Another "power saving gone awry" issue is that USB selective suspend can cause wireless mice to stutter after not moving for just a few seconds. I think this is due to lag in the wake-up time. Unfortunately, the interface doesn't have any time adjustment, so I have to just turn selective suspend.

> Energy Star is not some tree-hugging, drum-circle, feel-good program.

It saves people money. Less spent on electric bills and tax money can be used elsewhere.

> It saves people money. Less spent on electric bills and tax money can be used elsewhere.

This is what they claim. The reality is a much different.

EnergyStar has nothing to do with "modernizing the grid". It is, however, why any new dishwasher in the US takes like 4 hours to finish a load, unless you put it into non-bureaucratic mode. Meanwhile, we're driving energy consumption into the stratosphere with datacenters full of completely unregulated [1] GPUs that are mining scamcoins and generating incorrect search results.

The usual libertarian point applies here: just because the government stops doing X doesn't mean that you automatically get less X.

Particularly in the case of EnergyStar, I think it's well into the tail of diminishing returns on investment -- manufacturers don't have any incentive to start producing power-guzzling appliances when power costs are increasing. Its the sort of program that sounds good in theory, and maybe made sense at one point, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[1] I'm not arguing for regulation on GPUs...just pointing out that EnergyStar isn't touching the currently important part of the problem.

The problem is manufacturers also have no incentives to display the information EnergyStar provides if not forced to do so.

And sure Americans care about energy costs but looking at the car market you can see Americans don’t actually care to make choices that save them money in the long run. Ford doesn’t even produce sedans anymore.

That’s not really a fair comparison. Fuel consumption is just one of many important factors to consider when car shopping. For instance, a small sedan doesn’t fit my entire immediate family. For some parts of the country 4 wheel drive or all wheel drive are practically essential. Ground clearance can be an issue if you live on a country dirt road. EV charging stations can be unavailable nearby or in sufficient numbers. Some people’s work and hobbies require them to own pickup trucks.

Most people (and I'm talking 85%+) do NOT need 4wd or ground clearance. I get so tired of these excuses being trotted out by truck owners. Don't get your panties in a wad when people say you don't need a truck. I get it - YOU do happen to tow a 10,000lb boat or trailer every day for work/play. Fine. Nobody is taking your truck. But the vast majority of truck owners do NOT NEED a truck. They WANT a truck. And that is fine too - drive what you want! Just be honest with yourself and others....

Feels fair to me. Some people need different things from their appliances than efficiency. Those people can choose such appliances.

I’ve never even noticed how long it take my dishwasher to run because overnight is my requirement. If you throw parties weekly and need a fast dishwasher to clean plates between courses, buy one. Just as if you need a truck for your farm.

> Some people’s work and hobbies require them to own pickup trucks.

The majority of truck owners don’t use them for towing or hauling

https://www.axios.com/ford-pickup-trucks-history

While the points you're making about vehicles are technically true, I think it's dishonest to frame this as the actual thought processes consumers use.

Vehicles are primarily driven by culture, not pragmatism. I live in Texas, and not the outback part of Texas, but DFW. Trucks are prolific here and it's not exactly a secret that the greatest challenge most will ever face are the potholes on 360 heading into Arlington.

The truth is that many people are happy to burn money if it reinforces their sense of masculinity and identity as a Texan.

You made the same comment 5 hours ago [0] in the same thread. Accidental duplication?

- [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43912989

Guess he just wanted double the downvotes.

The usual libertarian point applies here: just because the government stops doing X doesn't mean that you automatically get less X. Particularly in the case of EnergyStar, I think it's well into the tail of diminishing returns on investment -- manufacturers don't have any incentive to start producing power-guzzling appliances when power costs are increasing. Its the sort of program that sounds good in theory, and maybe made sense at one point, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[1] I'm not arguing for regulation on GPUs...just pointing out that EnergyStar isn't touching the currently important part of the problem.

I think you'll find this is a result of the phosphate ban in the 90s. Detergent got less effective, so cycle times got longer to compensate. Same problem with clothes washers. A spoonfull of trisodium phosphate goes a long way, as long as you're ok with algae blooms downstream.

New dishwashers take a long time because they can be more energy and water efficient if they leave more time for detergents to degrade grease and the other stuff on dishes. If you don't have the time to wait for a slow cycle you use a fast one with the usual tradeoff of time vs money.

> New dishwashers take a long time because they can be more energy and water efficient if they leave more time for detergents to degrade grease and the other stuff on dishes.

Yes, I know the reason, but now say it in a way that doesn't make the assumption that the rule is rational: EnergyStar continued to increase the efficiency requirements to the point where the only option manufacturers had was to make the default cycles much longer in order to get the same performance [1]. Every dishwasher therefore has a button that reverts to the pre-regulation mode, but it's usually named in doublespeak.

Somehow I doubt that dishwashers are driving the power consumption curve in the US in 2025. But this is what bureaucracies do, unless given a self-destruct date.

[1] for example, what's preventing EnergyStar from requiring that the water be cold? That would use way less energy!

I’m completely missing your point. Your original comment has been flagged so I don’t see it, so I’m missing context.

I, and I would guess most consumers, are perfectly fine with the trade off of taking longer at lower cost (energy and water). I run mine overnight so it doesn’t matter. This is what I want as the default.

On the few occasions I need it to run faster and am fine with the trade off of higher cost, I press a button and it’s there.

What’s the problem?

So dishwashers can get the same performance for less water and energy usage, and you easily can push a button to trade energy and water efficiency for speed, and your problem is what?

The idea that manufacturers wouldn’t just make energy and water hogging dishwashers now is naive at best. Making something run well using less resources costs more money up front, even though the total cost of ownership is lower. If you don’t have to make them efficient and you don’t have to display how much energy or water they use and how much that would cost, then you can massively undercut anyone that does those things, even though the consumer would end up paying more over time.

> Somehow I doubt that dishwashers are driving the power consumption curve in the US in 2025.

But of course it isn’t just dishwashers, it is practically every home appliance. If every house was using 10% more energy, that adds up to a lot. It doesn’t mean that data centers aren’t also a problem, but abandoning a program that saves energy doesn’t fix either problem.

>for example, what's preventing EnergyStar from requiring that the water be cold? That would use way less energy!

Is that something you are worried about or was discussed? Or is that just a ridiculous made-up scenario trying to paint a reasonable regulation for nonsense?

> The idea that manufacturers wouldn’t just make energy and water hogging dishwashers now is naive at best. Making something run well using less resources costs more money up front, even though the total cost of ownership is lower.

Really? You sound like someone who would pay for such a thing. I bet there are more of you!

> If you don’t have to make them efficient and you don’t have to display how much energy or water they use and how much that would cost, then you can massively undercut anyone that does those things, even though the consumer would end up paying more over time.

Nobody said anything about getting rid of the stickers. We can still require stickers, just like we require food has labels on it. We don't need a sprawling certification system encompassing everything from telephones (sigh) to roofing materials and the government bureaucracy that defines it.

I just do not agree with the libertarian mindset. It is a “tragedy of the commons” situation for me. We live in a complex society and share/use the same resources and infrastructure, and the net effect of individual use can be huge. Power grid capacity is a perfect example, where each individual using a bit more energy doesn’t cost them much directly and there is little market pressure one way or the other. The overall effect requires higher infrastructure spending, that everyone pays regardless of if you use a bit more or less energy. Never mind how much pollution comes from energy production, and we all breath the same air. “The market” is absolutely terrible at solving for indirect effects like that.

I also don’t have the time, energy, and knowledge to be an expert on every single thing I buy or use. I know nothing about roofing materials, so having some bare minimum standards and left and right limits balancing societal harm/good and individual choice is perfectly reasonable to me.

Natural resources and infrastructure are a shared resource “owned” by everyone, collectively known as the nation. Protecting that value is what the government should be doing.

Re: Cold water requirement. It's not as ridiculous as it may seem. --In the 70's, we were told (in the US) to not flush the toilet after peeing. --We also were told that driving at 55mph was the optimum, most fuel efficient speed for all vehicles under all circumstances. --In the 2000's, my kids were urged to watchdog our family so that we didn't leave the tap on for more than 10 seconds while brushing our teeth. --In the 2010's, light bulbs that emit warm tones of light were apparently outlawed to save energy. I could see cold water becoming a thing.

Incandescent bulbs have a color temp of about 2700K and you can currently purchase LEDs at that same temp.

They are talking about the CFL bulbs (compact florescent), which have that cool colored industrial look lighting. Like all their examples, it is a grain of truth spun into ridiculousness. Most of the development of CFLs was in the 1970s because of the energy crisis. In the 1990s, they were promoted for use by the government and power companies, with rebates and other subsidies. The government didn’t start banning incandescents until 2012, after warm light LEDs had been around for a long time.

But 2700K CFLs have existed for several decades as well, even in the 90s.

Your whole premise is wrong. Energy star doesn't make a company do anything besides disclosure.

> manufacturers don't have any incentive to start producing power-guzzling appliances when power costs are increasing

That's only true if customers can know how much energy their devices are going to use. Energy star forces that disclosure and that's it. Market forces are done everything else. Consumers prefer lower energy costs and devices that voluntarily achieve an energy star certification

Also, "takes like 4 hours to finish a load", I have a new dishwasher, there is no combination of settings (except adding a delay) that will make a load take four hours. Max I can get is 2:36

Yes, and I'm not sure what the parent refers to when they say "non-bureaucratic mode", but if they mean literally turning the dial to another wash setting and this is supposed to be evidence of the outrageous inconvenience this program presents to the American consumer, well then they should not take offense if one considers their views to be the comical indignations of a "libertarian snowflake". And this is from someone who constantly switches the machine to non-default subhour wash programs 90% of the time (clothes not dishes).

I’m neither a libertarian, nor am I a snowflake…and the argument I am making has absolutely nothing to do with the presence or absence of a specific button.

When there is a huge government bureaucracy that is devoted to writing and implementing “efficiency standards”, then I question the value of the expense.

Y’all do realize that other countries with energy efficient appliances don’t have this program, right?

(It’s almost like it isn’t necessary to achieve the same outcome.)

The second sentence in your initial post is literally whining about how dishwashers take 4 hours to finish unless you put in non-bureaucratic mode, as if this some huge inconvenience to the American household. And since you feel no need to clarify what you meant by "non-bureaucratic mode" in your additional comment we can only conclude that you were referring to literally turning a dial or pressing a button. Overblowing a minor inconvenience is the literal definition of a snowflake in how it's colloquilly used.

Having failed to demonstrate convincingly how this greatly imconveniences the American household as consumer, you pivot to the inconvenience of the American household as taxpayer. But any serious discussion of that point requires you to discuss the concrete cost of this certification program compared to all other government services. This, you also do not do.

As for other countries not having this program, what do you think the purpose of the "EU energy label program" is?

Mischaracterizing my argument, and then attacking that mischaracterization is called a straw man.

My argument is not about dishwashers. It's not about specific buttons. It's that removal of this particular government bureaucracy is unlikely to lead to any bad outcomes, because it has long ago stopped doing much of anything that actually impacts energy use, and instead focuses on things like making your dishwasher work worse in the name of efficiency. A classic story of bureaucratic imperative.

Even if you do think it's doing something, you have yet to adequately explain why it needs to be done by the government.

The EU has had Ecodesign regulations for a long time, and the Brussels effect [1] does the rest.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect

The Ecodesign regulations are pretty new. The EU used to just join the US's EnergyStar program until there was talk of getting rid of it in 2018. Canada, Japan and Switzerland still join the US's EnergyStar program. I have no idea what the GP is talking about with the claim that most countries don't have the energy Star program.

Maybe China? But I feel like China has pretty strict regulations about a lot of things.

> Canada, Japan and Switzerland still join the US's EnergyStar program.

I can't speak for Europe, but I know Japan well. It may have "joined", but there is literally no awareness of the program. You don't see the symbol on appliances here, and I'm not sure anyone would know what it is, if it appeared. They simply don't need such a program to have efficient appliances.

One thing the government does do is offer rebates for people upgrading old appliances. One might ask whether the money spent on EnergyStar would be better put to use on these kinds of direct incentives.

https://www.energystar.go.jp/

I've only seen "EnergyStar" in Europe on the BIOS screen of older computers. I knew it was American, but until this HN post I thought it only applied to computers.

The EU's energy labelling scheme grades appliances on a scale, and gives the estimated annual electricity usage. I'm sure it's effective, as it makes clear why the cheapest appliance might not be a good purchase.

https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_energy_label

I'm not certain, but I think the rating would be either performed or certified by an independent laboratory, i.e. a private business, so the government bureaucracy is limited to defining the specification/tests.

(And incidentally, my dishwasher defaults to the "Eco" programme, which takes 3½ hours. I don't care as I almost always run it overnight, and it's one button press to choose a faster programme.)

> the comical indignations of a "libertarian snowflake"

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.

Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

> Energy star forces that disclosure and that's it.

Incorrect. The far bigger part of the program is certification:

https://www.energystar.gov/about/how-energy-star-works/energ...

(There's also the scoring system, though I don't know if that falls under certification.)

This is how the efficiency requirements become de facto mandates. Federal procurement, among other things, requires energy star certification. There are even mortgage discounts for energy star certified buildings.

You do know that energy star certification is voluntary, right?

Nobody forces manufacturers to get certified, they do it because the market prefers it.

Energy star does not force manufacturers to be certified. I can walk into my local appliance store and walk out with a whole kitchen full of uncertified products if I wanted too.

It’s “voluntary” except for all of the different ways it’s been written into regulations, from federal procurement all the way down to local government.

But if the market prefers it, great! Do it without the need for a government bureaucracy! Organizations like Underwriters Laboratories don’t need an arm of the US government to exist.

What these "free market" idealists fail to recognize is that the free market only works when consumers are informed. Yes, ideally consumer should buy products that are higher quality or cheaper and that should incentivize the market to produce products of that nature. Yeah, in order to do that though consumers need some measurement of quality.

It's like advocating for the free market by saying used car dealers should be able to dial back the odometer. That's not free market economics. It's actually the opposite, these people are advocating for a less-free market.

You’re getting downvoted because you’re making a few mistakes. 1) Energy Star is not a mandate, it’s a certificate if you want it. 25% of dishwashers are not ES at Home Depot. 2) Dishwashers are slow for a few reasons, a big one is gov’t stopped use of strong detergents. The new one needs time to dissolve foods. 3) “why solve X when Y is still a problem” is always a weak argument. 4) “markets will solve it” doesn’t always work because the individual cost of an energy guzzling appliance is a few extra dollars, but the collective cost is high.

The difference between appliances in 1970 vs now is immense. My dishwasher is so quiet we double check if it’s on. It uses less water than handwashing. Even the Chamber of Commerce (big business lobby) asked them to keep Energy Star.

False; my brand new dishwasher from Bosch takes approximately two hours and ten minutes to complete a load of dishes on the standard mode.

EnergyStar on GPUs wouldn’t be that bad nowadays!

I actually sort of agree. If you're going to put the regulations in place, at least do it where it matters!

Why is it that every time libertarians win a victory for my freedom my life gets harder and worse?

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