Quebec refuses to reinvest in Lion Electric | Hacker News Reader

Quebec refuses to reinvest in Lion Electric

thecanadianpressnews.ca

83 pointsKon-Peki95 comments

Wait I don't understand is this just an excuse? Is this a slightly more subtle example of an "anti" movement being emboldened by what's happening in the US, despite the same legal framework not applying? Like the anti abortionists in Europe are on the rise. Or is there a legitimate reason that it depends a bit on US policy?

Reliant on exports to the US?

Yeah, but aren't these bussed mostly subject to state policy and not federal policy?

If there is a federal tariff on Canadian vehicles that applies then everyone including states has to decide if they want to purchase what they intended or keep the budget they planned.

Tariffs, imports, and exports are controlled by the Federal,Government of the United States of America. The states have no power in these areas.

I read it as the opposite. A business that's already in trouble that has cross border entanglements in the current climate and can't get private support is a perfectly reasonable time for a government to cut off money.

The only bit where slowing electrification comes up is the first sentence, which felt like an attempt to spin fallout from Trump chaos as people waking up to the folly of electrification instead.

Yeah that's what I hoped but there wasn't much discussion of the company in question.

Nothing "anti" about this decision. The province's credit rating was recently downgraded (1). Investing in a struggling local company that had a dim outlook even before the US election (2) would be a tough sell.

1. https://www.ctvnews.ca/montreal/article/sp-global-lowers-que...

2. https://globalnews.ca/news/10673318/lion-electric-300-more-l...

We just completely lost all investments in Northvolt so the government is being very careful with high profile investments into renewables, especially when we've bankrolled them before and they couldn't deliver.

But wasnt Northvolt a stupid idea to begin with? They ordered whole Chinese manufacturing line but forgot to secure technology transfer? Paid for the line and then discovered it takes more than pressing buttons to make good product.

As a business idea Northvolt was stupid. As a money laundering scheme it was pretty good.

> Public Auction Due to closure of US EV Manufacturing facility – Short Notice!

https://workingmancapital.com/auction/lion-electric-chicago-...

They'll have to buy from BYD, like everybody else.

Which Canada currently tariffs at 100% (long predates Trump’s scheme).

“Long predates” is overstating it, the 100% tariff was put in place in october 2024, following the u.s.'s lead.

Was there some policy reason to follow the US lead ? Follow the Leader does not sound like a valid rationale.

Because of the tightly integrated and codependent auto industries across both countries.

Liberation Day will fix that.

I'm sitting in a battery-electric bus from New Flyer this very minute. BYD is hardly the only bus OEM around

Quebec (ARTM/STM) already uses electric buses from Novabus (Volvo), so no.

There are _loads_ of electric bus manufacturers; many of the big incumbent manufacturers, at least in Europe, literally have the same chassis in electric and non-electric versions. My local bus system uses these, for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_StreetDeck#StreetDeck_E... - they're available in plain diesel, light hybrid, hydrogen, and electric.

Here's another example, available in diesel, plugin hybrid, electric, and _natural gas_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Dennis_Enviro400_Cit... (my local system uses the hybrid version of these).

Even for double deckers, which are a bit of a niche and really mostly only used in Ireland and the UK in Europe, there are at least four big manufacturers, only one of which is BYD.

Electric buses are not just about the environment.

They are also so much more comfortable.

Less noisy, less rattly.

I would think it makes society healthier to have quieter, less annoying ways to commute.

Also, they produce less soot, nox and carbon monoxide for the kids to breathe.

Quebec already has electric city buses built in partnership with Novabus and Hydro-Quebec, they are pretty widespread in Montreal.

This is something else, a startup that I've only ever seen schoolbuses from.

They're also more expensive, so cities buy fewer of them, leading to more cars on the road, worsening the problem

Only more expensive in terms of the initial purchase price. Maintenance and energy costs are much lower than for a gasoline bus.

Until you have to change the battery a few years later and it’s cheaper to buy a new bus.

Actually, this is an interesting point.

Batteries tend to have a max charge/discharge cycle. Unlike a consumer car, buses see a lot more distance. I wonder how much more quickly the batteries go.

The lithium doesn't escape from a battery like it does from a gas tank.

I would expect a large scale operator to recover a lot of money from the sale of those rare earth minerals.

Large or small operator, the recovery amount will be a tiny fraction of the overall battery pack cost. Recycling isn't free, and costs, and assemble + profit margins at both ends.

In short, you're diverting "how often" to "meh, who cares, they're recyclable", without any validation that it negates the cost.

AIUI, as EV fleets age, we're learning that it's the depth of charge and discharge that degrades batteries, not the total power throughput. Staying within 20% and 80% makes most of the difference to longevity. Additionally, they seem to degrade to about 80% of original capacity and then plateau, and are generally lasting much longer than initially expected.

This isn't true:

> Our results indicate that today's electrified bus fleets are roughly cost comparable to their traditional diesel counterparts

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X2...

Even if they cost a bit more, they are more reliable, better for the environment and air quality, and are so much quieter.

The best thing about EBs is, they do not hum and vibrate so much making it feel like the bus is about to transform into some Decepticon bot any minute now.

Huh. I suppose that bus contract probably does make up a sizeable amount of their business. I last saw them at a trade show where they had their class 5 and 6 cab over truck chasses. There was a huge push for EV package delivery, for which that size was ideal. Their offerings looked pretty polished compared to the competition. I would think the CARB rules (and those in the other states that follow CARB) would stir a bit more demand for Lion's product offerings, but I can see what Quebec would be hesitant about such a company operating internationally in the r current political environment.

"the group was seeking government aid of about $24 million to relaunch the company." sure, let's throw away another $24 million in a company that failed

Hey, it worked for Bombardier.

Government should not be backstopping poorly run companies from the consequences of their failure to execute. That will only encourage further irresponsibility.

Does that apply to Boeing too? Letting poorly run companies fail runs the risk of causing national security problems when you're suddenly dependent on a hostile power for parts of your supply chain.

I am not sure what your point is. If Boeing went bankrupt, someone could buy them and the company would continue running. Also, Boeing is not the most important defense contractor in the US. They don’t make the F35 and they don’t make the new B21 Raider. The world is not going to end if Boeing disappears.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com