Ask HN: I don't want to work in software anymore. Where do I go?

You don't say what kind of software and for whom. One thing I suggest, if you haven't done it, is working on software, but for companies that don't ship software or software services. Stay away from the big tech companies, look for something small and somewhat local. You don't want to be the FAANG "cattle, not pets"

One of the most enjoyable jobs I had was working for a small company that made [digital] audio equipment (before that was possible on a PC) - we had sound systems in every office and a small recording studio in the basement. Most of the engineers were also musicians. We had software people, analog people, and music and radio production people.

I think small is the better description vs non-software company. Many non-software companies, especially larger ones, seem to treat devs poorly or have poor environment. After all, in those companies IT is a cost and not a revenue generator.

Maybe this is the difference between companies that use computers and see IT support as a cost (almost everyone), vs. companies that ship embedded software which is part of the product. My experience above was with embedded software.

Of course that was before everyone just threw in a wifi interface and a web server.

> One thing I suggest, if you haven't done it, is working on software, but for companies that don't ship software or software services. Stay away from the big tech companies, look for something small and somewhat local.

This is good advice. I'm a dev in a manufacturing company (admittedly quite a large one) and the culture here is very different to pure software businesses I've worked in. There are deadlines, but they're realistic. People go home on-time. Little or no fashion-driven development practices and platform churn, mostly just pragmatism and an emphasis on stuff that works. I share a building with proper engineers (mechanical, electrical) as well as other devs and the culture is so refreshing. When you look around, there are lots of businesses like this just quietly getting on with things.

Small B2B software shops are great as well. Part-time also helps. And stay away from companies that have Agile Coaches, SCRUM masters.

Then what to do about this cost center vs profit center thing?

Heartily seconding this. There’s a big world out there in the business of software outside the software business. It’s far from homogenous.

I’d also add that the main difference between US and Europe is that here you will take home a lot more money (much higher salary and much lower taxes) and in Europe you’ll have that more relaxed, less intense atmosphere (but the lower salary and high taxes to match). You’re competing directly with, for instance, the Romanian developers some US companies are outsourcing to for cost reasons.

In the US you’re expected to meet your own emotional needs by application of money to the problem (for some I assume that’s easier than for others). The happiest people in the American system find ways to do that such as taking ample time off and pursuing their expensive hobbies.

(I haven’t worked in Europe but this is what I’ve gathered - salary and tax data is pretty easy to find though so I’m reasonably confident in these modest assertions.)

That's such an intensely personal decision that is affected by so many things that strangers can't possible know about that I don't know if anyone could usefully respond to your broad question.

I would question whether the problem is that you don't want to be in the field at all, or that you are fed up with specific positions/companies that are a poor fit for you. You only have 4 jobs in your history, and having 3 of them suck can be pretty gloomy.

So maybe consider doing contract-to-hire, where you're working 6 month (or so) contracts. That lets you sample the work environment at different companies and when you find one that works well for you, you'd have the option to stay as a permanent employee.

Thanks! I appreciate the feedback. You have a great point about the field vs specific company. I've never really considered contract work before, but it sounds like that could be a good option to consider :)

Great advice from the parent comment.

I'll throw these random ideas in along with it:

- Work/life balance is something you enforce on your own. Learn to get over fear of being fired (an emergency fund helps) and simply refuse to follow unspoken toxic overwork culture. I have found that more likely than not, nobody actually notices that you aren't working as hard as all the 10x developers that have no life and the people who imitate them.

- On the topic of "field versus company," another aspect to keep in mind is that the actual job of software development is very different in different industries. Moving to the same job in a different industry may feel a lot different and have much different norms regarding workload, culture, compensation, etc.

- Don't forget that desk jobs in software are still some of the best work you can do overall. Not only is it a desk job where you are generally treated like an adult, it's one of the higher paying ones at that. Think very hard about the grass on the other side of that fence. Your example of aviation mechanic sounds like it could be ripe for shit work conditions (physical job, being out in the elements, having to go on location physically 100% of the time, working for extremely low-profit-margin companies, I would think that it's only decent if it's got a strong union and that in itself will be a barrier for you getting into it)

- Consider how you evaluate companies during job interviews. Focus on finding out if the company, manager, and team is the right fit for you. Spend less headspace on trying to impress the company and make sure they are impressing you. (I am not sure if this is true but I think a lot of candidates who do this in interviews are perceived as knowing what they're doing because they are expressing a very clear idea of what they want out of the role)

- There are other ways to use software developer skills that aren't a software development job directly. One example is working on the customer side in pre-sales or post-sales.

> Learn to get over fear of being fired (an emergency fund helps)

You know, now that I think of it, my own career didn't really take off until I adopted this mindset. Great advice, even if hard to implement.

I have this feeling now after working at a few companies. I've now just started at a small place where I'm one of the only devs but my thoughts and advice are heard and acted on my the CEO. It's

> I have found that more likely than not, nobody actually notices that you aren't working as hard as all the 10x developers that have no life and the people who imitate them.

In my experience, people do notice, but there's nothing to be done about it. Companies, unless they pay top dollar, can't expect 10x performance out of their developers (because 10x devs are so rare) - they expect and are fine with just 1x, and anyone delivering 10x is a nice bonus for them. In other words, managers are realistic and know what the money they spend on workforce can buy them.

Yeah I guess you could say they may notice but at most companies everyone is evaluated under a performance system where the numbers go something like:

4: you have no life and you’re getting promoted

3: 90% of employees

2: you’ll be in a PIP soon if you don’t get better

1: you’re in a PIP and will be fired almost certainly

>you are fed up with specific positions/companies that are a poor fit for you

Agree. With no degree, but a skill and interest in programming coupled with experience, you're actually in a pretty good place. Find a company that doesn't suck. They seem elusive but they exist. They might not pay as well, but you can get through the day without counting the seconds until it's over.

Shit companies are always hiring because they have high turnover, so it would seem like all companies are shit, but they are not.

Maybe get out of NYC. If you are in the straight tech industry, think about doing tech in another industry, they all need it.

FWIW, there will always be times of stress in tech, but if the place is actually well managed, those times would be minimized.

Firstly I would recommend therapy and resilience training. Throwing out the word “abused” at 3 of 4 jobs raises my eyebrow a bit. I’m not saying you weren’t, but statistically speaking there might also be something going on with you that will make many jobs hateful. Addressing that now will make whatever choice you make more likely to be successful. As for other places, I’d 100% recommend moving to Northern Europe. They simply treat people better there. You might find that doing software at a big boring European company wildly different from tech In manhattan. If you start applying now the job could be your pathway to residency.

If I were looking for a trade I’d probably apprentice as a plumber or electrician. But that work can be stressful and demanding too so start by working on yourself so you practice dealing with stress better.

I bet you could find a better cultural fit and be a lot happier while still doing what you love. There are vastly different cultures across different companies, particularly in startups and mid-size.

I took a break from city life and regular work for a year while I lived and traveled in an RV doing contract work. It was fun for a while, but I missed having a challenge and feeling like I had a stake in what I’m working on. I now work remotely in a town that has nothing to do with tech, and my friends here work largely in tourism and real estate. They all get treated like shit compared to software engineers. It made me thankful for my place in life. I’m likely moving back to the SF Bay Area after my lease ends here.

I feel like cultural fit is hard to really know in an interview. I've definitely seen different cultures even in different departments at the same large company. But it seems like the true culture only comes out after at least one performance rating cycle.

Read the book - what color is your parachute.

It will help you figure out the type of career that will work for you.

In particular, knowing the ‘language’ that you speak… will help you find the right career path.

A language being… do you enjoy working with numbers, with people, outdoors… etc…

Bit late here, but one point to consider is that people believe a lot of silly things when it comes to jobs. Maybe you don't, but still. Either through believing some cliche that people say, or letting some insecurity or fear have too much power over us, it can be easy to entertain fantasies about the workplace and our space of possibilities in it.

This is a very good and practical and humorous read on the subject. I suggest before you make any drastic decisions you try some of the stuff there, and see if you weren't nursing some illusions:

https://ludic.mataroa.blog/blog/ludics-guide-to-getting-soft...

This doesn't help you, at least not at the moment, but: When you get a job you love, where they treat you well, where management is sane and the people are decent, think hard before you leave that job, even if it doesn't pay the best. It's not easy to find that. When you have it, don't be in a hurry to leave.

I don't think being abused has anything to do with being in software. Just my experience and opinion though.

I think you will both find and wont find you are abused in most lines of work.

Seems like a lot more work to change industries (with probably a similar risk of being abused) than to just find a software position where you aren't being abused IMO.

I don't know, it seems like you have many opportunities.

Try comedy! Making good, funny content is hard. I think if you try hard, you can do it, eventually. The world needs it right now.

That's just a random suggestion. As others said, without a clear background on your intentions, it's impossible to know what to suggest.

1. Go back to school and become an engineer, an actual engineer with a license.

2. If you are young and healthy military is still an option.

3. Pick up a trade where you use your hands, like plumbing or construction.

4. Go back to school and become a lawyer.

5. Go work at a charity, such as a homeless shelter.

The first thing is to know what you like and what you would rather do. I was in the same boat as you about 2 years ago. I was a JavaScript developer who loved writing applications in JavaScript. The problem is that almost nobody else in the workforce could write applications in JavaScript, so it was miserable with a bunch of insecure pretenders.

A common theme from #1, #3, #4 (and other comments too)... anything properly professionalized / licensed is a good option.

When I was in a situation like that I used Po Bronson's "What Should I do with My Life" and the Strengths Finder survey. It helped confirm something that I was already planning.

I also came back to software later.

The fact that you got a new username for asking this question is awesome, you're already prepared for the next journey of life, congratulations on new career(undefined)

BTW, based on my observation it seems you're burned!(Not like spies), I'd say take a year of and stick to re-finding your passion (whatever big or small) it may be.

Based on your experience you could venture into some startup as a Angel Investor and Advisor for the moment, until then stay curious.

> I have been abused too many times.

I've been in software for around two decades, many employers, and never have been abused. Can you specify what the abuse was about?

Work hard when you want and build your domains. Don't stress about work, it's not worth stressing. Know your worth and bring that worth to the table when it's time to talk about raises etc.

I've thought the same thing. But software pays well, is fairly chill, and when you contribute to a big project you naturally build a position of value.

I'm from one of those Northern European countries, if you are able to get a job there, the quality of life will be much much better. Something like regular coffee breaks during working hours is not uncommon. Which is pretty much unheard of in the rest of the world.

All of the options have their own set of trade-offs of course.

Tax Accountant would be my second choice career. If I had been born at an earlier decade, it's where I would have landed.

Everyone has great ideas. My comment is go somewhere you will be appreciated. And you can also appreciate them back. Usually non profits are good choices.

Secondly, you are not just IT. You are IT+industry you worked in. You can do something else in the same industry. Something like business consulting.

If you want to take advantage of your software experience without being consumed by it, you might move sideways into technical communications. If you do, make sure your interviewer(s) know that you do know software, and deeply, as a practitioner; it is not true of all TC people.

I think maybe you are misinterpreting the data.

Is the abuse you experienced a function of software development? Or perhaps some companies are shitty and some are not. Or perhaps it is NY (big city) that is the root cause.

Change is good, but you need to be sure you're changing the right thing.

If you think people in the software industry are abusive, DO NOT go into the trades.

Also can you pass a drug test, or are you willing to pass one.

Do you want to work for others in software field or Do you hate it even for your own project / hobby projects?

I could write down my experiences many peoples will cry so hard under my comment so better I will leave a quote.

"Whatever you do, Knew it before start"

Hardware, obviously. ;-)

Though working in another country sounds like a great option if you can arrange it.

I do have some bad news though: all large companies treat their employees poorly in one way or another.

I personally am drawn to the trades, but something like building high quality furniture in a small shop has a huge appeal.

I became a data analyst. A bit more numbers, a bit more presenting and less coding :)

Try travelling for a bit? See the world and see how you feel, maybe take a sabbatical

If you don't mind sharing, can you talk about the kind of abuse you faced?

Join a startup at series A doing something you think is cool.

Build a startup