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Comment by gwd | Hacker News Reader

> Writing the address on the envelope was awkward, as I haven’t used a pen in several years; it took a few attempts and some wasted envelopes...

Wow -- I mean, sure, I don't use a pen that often, but I'm sure I hand-write something at least once a month...

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This thread is more interesting to me than the article itself. I am the complete opposite. I always have a pen in my pocket along with a really small (2"x3") notebook, and I absolutely use it all the time.

Personally, I find pen and a memo pad much handier than a phone. There is no unlocking, searching, or loading. And I can write much faster than tap a little screen keyboard. Even more importantly, on my memo pad there are no notifications to completely sidetrack my lizard brain.

But aside from the practical, it is also just such a nice change of pace to use analog technologies when I can. I use my computer and write software all day. It's good to get a break sometimes.

I'm at the point where the only things I handwrite are gift labels and holiday cards. Maybe an occasional doctor's office form, but those are increasingly digital.

I recently was in an awkward situation when ordering my new passport. Most times I got to sign some papers I have some signature which is a few waves, not forming many letters. In the passport office the clerk told me they can't recognize any enough letters in there, so I had to do multiple attempts till they were happy ... now my passport got a signature I won't be able to replicate ever.

(I do some handwriting for notes taking, but that's some writing based on block letters, not script as in a signature)

>now my passport got a signature I won't be able to replicate ever

I'm not sure I could ever prove I am who I say I am using my signature. My wife signs my name most of the time when it's necessary for a check or a health form for the kids or whatever. Whenever I go to vote, I try to sneak a look at their copy of the form to see how I signed it when I registered. I think my credit union has one 'on file' for me, but I'm sure it's nothing like how I actually sign my name and is from ~25 years ago.

This is a very strange requirement, to be honest. E.g. what about foreigners whose native script is not the same, so their (pre-existing) signature is unparseable to that clerk anyway?

FWIW I have a signature that is barely recognizable as my two initials, and I have never had it rejected on such grounds in the five different countries (using two different scripts) I've had to sign documents using it.

Genuinely curious, I don't write anything long by hand, but do you not jot down disposable information with frequency, or date food, or anything like that? I date food we put in the fridge/freezer. I jot down something like a phone number if I am redirected. I have to give my pet medication occasionally and I use a post-it to track so the household can know. Like I said, I'm not writing anything even as long as a card, but I use a pen multiple times a week, and essentially daily. I know a lot of people use their phones for this stuff (and I do too), and maybe I'm an old person now for not using my phone for all of that.

I use a text file in my phone for notes.

I don't have roommates, but if I did we'd probably use a whiteboard for tracking errands and schedules.

> I date food we put in the fridge/freezer

What date are you putting on the food? Every packaging here in Spain (and Europe I assume) has both the production date and "best before" dates printed on them from the factory, and stuff that doesn't have packaging you know if they're bad by looking/smelling/tasting.

This is handy if you're doing things like separating a package into portions for your fridge for near term use and freezer for long term storage. Such as the large packages from Costco/Sam's Club.

When I open milk, I write the date on the cap to help keep track of how long it'll remain good.

My method is that I assume it's gone bad when it tastes sour.

Yeah, no need to write anything down when you already have a detector built-in in your body called "nose+tongue" (well, at least for milk).

I throw away bread when the green fuzzy stuff on it no longer tastes good.

I can taste the mold in bread before it's grown big enough to become visible.

For most foods evolution has graced us with the ability to see, smell or taste any issues well before they actually become a problem. There are some things you have to look out for like botulism or salmonella, but for simple foods like bread and milk there isn't much point in taking precautions

Much easier to just drink enough so there is no chance of that happening.

But then I am in UK where milk is easily obtained in 2 pint or less packages and is all long term - over a week. It is harder to gat 4 int or gallon containers which I think are more common in the US.

In the US, the way milk is sold, is that larger amounts cost less. In other words, the 1/2-gallon container, buy two of those, and it costs significantly more than a single 1-gallon container. It gets even worse for quarts. But I seldom buy in the 1-gallon container as it will generally spoil before I've used it all, so there isn't any savings there for me.

>In other words, the 1/2-gallon container, buy two of those, and it costs significantly more than a single 1-gallon container.

Except sometimes the 1/2 gallons will be randomly on sale where you can get like 3 of them for the price of a gallon. Milk economics makes no sense to me. But yeah, it's usually cheaper to buy more than you need and just throw it out if you don't use it, as is the American way.

Inversely, I've also seen promotions where the gallon is heavily featured in the ads, and they're selling the half gallon for full price. Neat, you're paying extra to get less milk!

It also usually sours I think? You can still use that for pancakes or something... not sure because I’m too lazy and throw it away myself.

Food that's not prepackaged. e.g., I recently threw out a container of eggs that had been in my freezer for about two years because my hens were laying so much faster than we could consume, that we had dozens of extras.

I also label things like the date I install a new HVAC filter, or how much to cut off on a piece of lumber, etc.

I was unaware that it was safe to freeze eggs.

Why would you think it wasn't?

I batch cook and freeze meals, and some of them look similar (sauce and chicken vs sauce and pork) and I want to eat the older stuff first. There are also some products that are recommended to be disposed of within X days of opening, which fall well before their best by date.

When I batch cook meals, I then eat them over the next few days until either it's done or it's been too long for that meal. Then I batch cook something else. I usually don't have multiple batches on the go.

So you just eat the same meal over and over again until you run out?

Pretty much. I'll have the same meal 2-3 days then cook the next.

Unopened, a jar of pasta sauce is good basically indefinitely, but as soon as you actually open the jar the clock starts ticking. We don't make enough pasta at a time to use a full jar, (and in fact will usually use a small fraction of the jar) so I write the date that I opened the jar on the lid to plan its use a little better. "Hey, better find a use for this sauce, it's going to go bad eventually."

When freezing something you made or something unfrozen you won't be able to finish before its expiration date, it's good to write the date on it as well as what it is when it's not immediately obvious (for example... frozen duck fat and coconut oil look pretty much the same, and they don't smell anything when frozen).

Think the last time I used a pen is about 8-9 years ago when I had to sign something to buy my home. Notes and stuff I just write on my phone or computer and I don't see what else I'd use a pen for.

Wow, I use a pen nearly every day. Sometimes I deliberately get a pen or pencil and paper rather than a phone. I was doing some home improvements in my attic, and I would often need to jot down a measurement so I could cut wood etc. I did this once or twice on my phone and realized it's much easier to do this with a pencil and small notepad.

In what is perhaps the most ironic blend of high and low tech, I wrote my own software to build grocery lists, which I then print and use a pen to cross items off as I shop. This is by far the most efficient vs trying to faff about with some mobile solution.

Apple Reminders has native grocery lists now. The collaboration feature (a household can keep just one shared grocery list) and auto-categorizing by store section are serious time and frustration savers. No "oh shit, I left the list at home", no "I could go to the grocery store while I'm out, if we need anything... but the list's at home...", no manually organizing the list, no grocery-list-by-text. It's so nice, saves far more time than any faff it introduces (I'd agree that without the collaboration and auto-categorizing, grocery lists on phones would be more trouble than they're worth)

(I know other apps have also done it, but having it on a built-in is really handy and it works well)

I prefer an app for grocery lists since it can be managed with a single hand while shopping - no need to stop in the middle of an aisle to pull out a pencil and cross something off, nor to print anything out before heading to the store, for that matter. Plus, I won't have to re-sync the list with what remain on the physical list at the end of the trip.

My software is highly idiosyncratic. I input recipes for the week, and it adds ingredients to the shopping list, but only some ingredients. Other staple ingredients are things we keep in standard inventory and these go on the shopping list periodically rather than on demand.

UNIX is a friendly environment for me to write my own software like this. Phones are hostile, they’re more like appliances. Pair up UNIX with old-school peripherals like printers and I’m in business.

But yeah I love my phone for its appliance-like uses.

I tried for a while to do the whole "notebook life" thing that was really trendy to blog about some years back, but found I never had the notebook I wanted on-hand (even if I was just using one notebook...) or forgot to grab a pen or can't find a pen et c. Then making it possible to find anything in them requires more effort afterward.

What do I have on me basically all the time? My phone.

I've done everything in Apple Notes for years now, and it's so much less hassle, and actually works for me. I just make sure to include words I might use to search for a note, when writing a new note. Search does the rest. I can and sometimes do organize things into directories, but usually it's kinda wasted effort. Search is enough.

Meanwhile, the few dozen pages scattered across four or five notebooks that I generated in that brief kick remain, passively, a pain in the ass. I've carted them through two moves, meaning to digitize them, because when I remember they exist and browse I'm like "oh yeah, that was a good idea!" but, out of sight out of mind and when I stumble across them I'm always in the middle of doing other, more important shit.

I can't even remember the last time I've used a pen for anything other than writing a check.

Well, there's my minimum of once per month :)

I've never written a check in my life.

How do you pay for things above a few thousand dollars? I guess if you don't ever buy a pricey car or own a home you wouldn't need it.

Not the person you're replying to, but the bank payment system in Europe is waaaay better than the US; nearly all four- and low-five-digit sums in the last 20 years I've paid for with bank transfer.

You paid for your home with cheques?

Electronic transfer through online banking, or a debit card (may well be followed with a call from the bank to verify, though it's years since I've done this).

Visa's debit card limit on Denmark seems to be 100,000 DKK, roughly 13,000€. There's no limit with the national system, Dankort.

Credit Card, Debit Card, or Bank Transfer.

Faster payments [0] is pretty much instant. Some banks have lower limits, and CHAPS[1] is same day and unlimited. I used faster payments for buying a car, and for paying a house deposit. My bank transferred my mortgage via CHAPS.

[0] https://www.starlingbank.com/resources/banking/guide-to-fast... [1] https://www.hsbc.co.uk/current-accounts/what-is-a-chaps-paym...

wire transfer, or walk into the bank and have them create a cashier's check

and a normal check is the same as an ACH transfer, so I will do the ACH transfer

or lawyer's escrow

and every other larger transfer has been cryptocurrency in my life, its been over a decade of that unlimited amount, zero scrutiny, 24/7/365 option

(I've tried various other country's and international system transfers, and the convenience is completely over-embellished, and limited to small amounts at best. and yes, I'm talking about instant SEPA in European banks. A lot of people don't have balances in crypto currency so it would just be more inconvenient for them to get into that system)

but the only time I'm personally using checks are because a new employer's HR system wants me to write VOID on a physical one, and I've opted to photoshopping a template with my account number and routing number, because checks are the same as an ACH transfer, and they could have just asked me to copy and paste those numbers into a input field

There was a time that printed checks had to use special laser toner called MICR Toner that was magnetic so the magneto readers could machine read the check bottoms routing and account numbers, but that went away when the Fed just ran it all as ACH/ electronically and optically scanned checks around the time mobile deposit and well after OCR became a thing. Last I checked the rule was still present in the statues.

Many people in Switzerland love to buy used cars with cash, even if they cost a few thousands.

(But we can also just scan the QR code of the recipient's bank account with the e-banking app and initiate a transfer that way.)

This is very much an American thing. And it's only a thing because our banks don't offer a truly universal and no-fee equivalent of easily transferring money between accounts across bank boundaries.

I can't remember the last time I wrote a check, but I use pens pretty regularly.

You don’t even write down temporary notes? Or doodle geometry when coding UI?

I use a text editor for notes. I do have a drawing tablet for digital art but that's not really the same as a pen or pencil.

Yep, exactly so.

For notes especially I find the digital version preferable because it is automatically archived, searchable, and readily accessible across all my devices.

Not even a whiteboard marker?

I'm in the US so I use permanent marker to write my lawyers phone number on my arm before protests

Whiteboard brainstorming is an interesting scenario that I haven't considered, but even then I'd have to say no because I've been fully remote for a while now.

That would only work if the phone system in El Salvador is operating.

As a Brit, the concept of "My lawyer" is slightly unfamiliar. The average Brit doesn't "have a lawyer"; they would only find a lawyer if they had a specific need, eg being accused of a crime or wanting to write a contract etc.

And yet as far as I can tell, most middle class Americans seem to refer to "their lawyer". Do you pay a monthly fee? Are they a criminal defence lawyer, or something broader? How often do you talk to them? How do you find them?

Not an American but have been involved in lots of US legal things for a charity. Generally "their lawyer" refers to a lawyer (solicitor in British usage) who is 'on retainer', which means that the client either pays a monthly fee to secure the lawyer's availability, or has a deposit with the lawyer which will be drawn from if legal assistance is needed.

Funnily enough, Americans do not use the term solicitor; that's reserved for lawyers working for the government!

> Funnily enough, Americans do not use the term solicitor; that's reserved for lawyers working for the government!

It is certainly a rare term in American English. I associate it with the probably now-archaic "NO SOLICITORS" signs, which used to be commonly used in an effort to ward off door-to-door salesmen and such. The specialized usage you are referring to is the use in titles of certain important government lawyers (I'm only aware of this in the federal government). The most famous is the Solicitor General, which is an appointed official in the Department of Justice whose job is mainly to argue on behalf of the government before the US Supreme Court.

> most middle class Americans seem to refer to "their lawyer"

I've only run into this among the so-called "upper middle class" here (e.g., physicians making $500K+/yr) and even then it's pretty rare.

It's not normal for Americans to just have a lawyer ahead of time. But then again it's also not normal for most Americans to routinely get themselves arrested at "protests". So if you're going to engage in activities that are likely to get you into legal trouble, you might find yourself a criminal defense attorney ahead of time. In particular, organized "protests" often have legal assistance from sympathetic lawyers.

It is possible to have an attorney on retainer though, either as a consequence of having hired that attorney in the past or as part of a subscription service.

The average American does not have a "my lawyer" either. Not sure where you're getting "most middle class Americans" from unless you're extrapolating from pop culture. I think it's common in movies and TV dramas for characters to refer to "my lawyer" in situations in which there is contact with law enforcement.

Right, I think I'm extrapolating from pop culture and a distorted lens on the internet.

I probably write a check every 5 years, and each time I need to ask someone how to do it, because the checks are slightly different compared to the country I grew up in.

My hand writing got rusty and awkward until I read that writing something by hand is shown to strengthen one's memory and recollection. It definitely seems to be the case for me and has made me much more organised.

Now I journal on a paper notebook, take daily notes on a whiteboard and I'm rediscovering index cards for long term storage, but I wish real life had a search function.

If I had an automated scanning + OCR + convert to Org system, I would never use a text editor for notes ever again.

Try using a tablet with hand written notes. There are programs (or even applications that replace the popup keyboard ) that will convert your writing into computer text.

I think that gives the improved retention plus easy filing of the result and if your writing is like mine the ability to actually read what you wrote a year before.

I'm not sure if I go one day without writing something.

For my blog, I can usually go straight to typing, but for my bigger projects I start by writing out any ideas, research, etc. I find that writing stuff helps me recall it later, even if I don't actually read the notes. It's especially helpful for big blobs of interconnected ideas.

He's also obviously not used to write/type letters... The whole thing is quite awful.

Schools used to teach this a minimum but they no longer do. It was also standard to learn that for job hunting but, again, I don't think many people apply for jobs by post nowadays although it can still be useful to know how to write a formal cover letter.

These days most candidates use AI generated cover letters.

Good thing I got ahead of the curve by never reading them

>but I'm sure I hand-write something at least once a month..

I'm sure I do too, but I couldn't actually tell you what I used it for. Probably to cross items off a shopping list or sign my name on something. Actually we got a new car and I needed to sign the form at the DMV to get license plates, so I guess that was it.

There will soon be many people who never learn how to write, only type

And many, many more people who never learn how to write or type, only to tap a phone screen!

And many many more people that will just say it or think it.

Wow wow wow, look at mr bestseller over here!

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