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Comment by CharlieDigital | Hacker News Reader

    > “When I’m on my deathbed, I won’t look back at my life and wish I had worked harder. I’ll look back and wish I spent more time with the people I loved.”

I saw a Reddit thread the other day on r/startups or r/entrepreneur where the OP was talking about how they'll be working until the day he or she dies.

I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its many sights and wonders? Had they already experienced everything good there is to experience in this one lifetime that they were so bored of it that they would prefer to work instead? Had they already swam with whales, explored dense Amazonian jungles, climbed snowy mountains, explored the countless alleys and backstreets of Tokyo, etc.

I completely get the drive to create; I have various side projects I make for fun and to learn. But I would never want to work for the rest of my life. Life is too short and the world is too big.

View on HN

I think the middle ground is healthy.

I'm in my early 30's, I have a job that I get to "create" in (I make video games).

> I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its many sights and wonders? Had they already experienced everything good there is to experience in this one lifetime that they were so bored of it that they would prefer to work instead? Had they already swam with whales, explored dense Amazonian jungles, climbed snowy mountains, explored the countless alleys and backstreets of Tokyo, etc.

Lots of these things are best done when you're younger, healthy, and able to do these things. I would _much_ rather live in a nice house in a nice area with exciting things to do from my mid 20's onwards and enjoy those things for years and years and years, rather than live in a smaller/cheaper/farther out place so that I can retire 10 years earlier and start living. I'd rather have 1-2 of those things to look forward to every year than say "I can't wait until I'm 50 and I can finally start doing all those things".

My dad counted down the days until he could retire, talked about how he would finally get to do X Y and Z. About 2 years before that, health conditions caught up and now he's not fit to do so many of those things that he was so excited and happy to do. If the tradeoff for me is working until I'm a little older while getting to enjoy the journey, rather than minmaxing the time that i can work and retire, then I'll choose to enjoy the ride.

    > "I can't wait until I'm 50 and I can finally start doing all those things".

I had an uncle pass last year and he was only 30 years older than me. He had already retired and a multi-millionaire in assets. Yet my aunt refused to retire because of a high paying job with little actual work. She kept working.

When he passed, the family asked me to put together a montage video and shared their photos with me spanning his lifetime. The moments when he was the happiest seemed to be when they were traveling together. As students, as parents, as a couple after my cousins had graduated and started their own lives.

In those last years, he was "waiting" for my aunt to be ready and it felt sad that he didn't get to travel more because my aunt thought more about the money than the short lifetime they had left. His passing was like a wake up call of sorts; a reminder that life is shorter than anyone can expect. It's very hard to convey this in words until one experiences this first hand and feels the shock.

More recently in my own travels, I've realized the same as you: that traveling in your youth makes much more sense than traveling in your "golden" years. You have greater mobility, more energy, less ailments. 20's and 30's are prime for exploring the world. Work will always be there!

Travelling isn’t the be all and end all of things either remember. That might be something that you prioritise but isn’t as important to other people. They might value time with family and friends, and that’s ok too. A bit like with food, “variety is the spice of life”

    > I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends.

That was one of my first lines in my OP. My point is that exchanging your life time for money isn't the end all.

> Travelling isn’t the be all and end all of things either remember.

I think you're missing the whole point. For you, traveling might not be that fun. For OP's uncle, apparently it was. He had to forego that because of reasons.

I do a fair share of traveling. I love it, and a few of my most cherished memories come from trips I did. This might come as a surprise to you, but the whole point of traveling is not to go from point A to point B or spend time in airports. The whole point is to do things you personally enjoy, including and not limited to spending time with people you enjoy being with. Most of the time, the destinations and the things we do are only the backdrop to the things we actually enjoy.

Yup, many of the folks responding are glossing over this line in my OP:

    > Had they already experienced everything good there is to experience in this one lifetime that they were so bored of it that they would prefer to work instead?

But every other point you r made in the the replies here has been about travel and how it can be done when people have suggested other priorities

I'm telling it from my perspective; and travel means different things to different people. Sightseeing? People watching? Cultural immersion? History? Exploring the outdoors? More generally, I look at it as "experience this Earth while you're here".

Spent my 20s grinding away at getting great at building software. I enjoyed it mostly, but there are definite regrets, esp with tech never being able to shut up about how awesome AI is in killing off any notion of craft.

Re: travel: this is one of the big takeaways from the book Die With Zero: travel is much easier when you are younger even if it is more expensive (relative to your assets). Just got back from an Italy trip where I averaged 5mi a day walking. 10 years from now (50s) it’s a coin flip if it would be possible for me to sustain that much walking over 10 days. Probable? Yes. But not guaranteed.

    > even if it is more expensive (relative to your assets)

A lot of this is relative to one's standards and objectives. You are certainly right that it is expensive relative to assets in one's youth, but it can still be quite attainable if backpacking, hostels, and street food are options.

When we went to Tokyo recently, the room we booked was tiny! The bed was only 6 or so inches away from the walls on each side. But for me, it was only a place to sleep at night and keep my luggage. If I had spent any more time than that in the hotel, it would have meant we did not spend enough time exploring Tokyo.

years ago i stayed in a capsule in tokyo with shared bath house for something like $20!

The cheapest hotels are often more interesting / memorable.

I think it depends a lot on your finances though. If you come from a rich family and have parental support by all means it is amazing to travel young. But if your travel budget is coming out of your downpayment on your house that could easily be the difference between buying before house prices got out of control or not. For example if you could have bought in 2013 without travel and it takes you till 2015 to save up a 2013 downpayment but in 2015 house prices have gone up and your downpayment needs to be larger and it takes more time, etc.

After reading a bit if history on travel/tourism I understood that this whole travel thing itself used to be luxury, upperclass thing. Most people would work and live where they are born, visit a few times in life outside for religious purpose or to attend important/relative's wedding etc. And that's about it.

For myself I didn't travel much for leisure when I was young, I am not traveling when I am middle aged and have more money and I do not plan to when I am old/retired. Even when I did whatever little travel, my memories are just about fight, arguments, or endless waiting for admission to a sight which finally after visiting is "What's the fuss was all about?".

On food the less I say the better. It was either over-hyped, over-priced. To top it all, concluding fine dining dinner of the trip when people after ordering table full of meal didn't eat a thing because they are far too drunk by then.

Overtime I have come to conclusion the people with sensibilities and resources to travel and enjoy are far fewer than people actually travel due to exhorting by incessant marketing of travel.

Different strokes I guess! I will say that there's something unique I get from travelling that I don't get from anything else- the visceral in-person reminder that people are, at their core, very similar everywhere- mostly decent people just living their lives. It's like an antidote to the "other"-ing that sometimes creeps into the psyche from our media landscape.

I wouldn't doubt a bit you said. It is just I come to conclusion that people are essentially same by reading (fiction, non-fiction) literature etc. So I do not feel the urge to go and confirm nonetheless :)

For me it’s like being a kid again. All your routines go out the window so you wake up in Amsterdam and it’s a whole new world. It’s a total mental refresh

Travel has always been something people do. People are unaware of historic travel, because it was called "pilgrimage" and not "tourism", but in many ways the same. Discounting for all forms of migration, voluntary or involuntary, and discounting for all forms of trade travel, fishing expeditions and nomadic life.

So while maybe most people through history stayed put, travel has never been just a luxury thing.

Maybe you should find a reason for travel that interests you, and it will be more enjoyable? Instead of taking the tourist wholesale perspective?

Travel need not be expensive nor extravagant.

I love this interview with Rick Steves and how he traveled Europe in his early days: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/05/974090406/rick-steves-europe-...

> Work will always be there!

I really wish this were true; I'd take a year off to work on "life", but any sort of career pause, especially in this environment, seems to be a huge risk.

Ageism is a concern--hell, even finding a new mediocre job in today's market is very difficult.

I think it's "make hay while the sun shines". Seems the future has less opportunity, and there's plenty of time for underemployment later.

    > but any sort of career pause, especially in this environment, seems to be a huge risk.

My experience is on the contrary. My largest gains in income have always come after a break. I'm making 2x what I made in 2020 after taking almost a year off to work on some side projects and startups (a YC submission)[0]. Then in 2023, decided to take another 8 months off to work on other side projects[1]

But I also used those times to make the things I wanted to make; what I learned along the way is that oftentimes the biggest barrier to getting a better offer is actually the lack of free time and patience. If you can create time for yourself and put that time to good use, you will come out of it better for it as long as you apply that time productively.

I've always guided junior engineers I've worked with to save as much as they can because that is what will give them opportunity and freedom. You need to be able to have free time to cram leetcode, for example, or build up a portfolio, or wait out bad offers.

[0] https://www.thinktastic.com/#/

[1] https://turas.app (I had to get this one out of my system and a partner and I tried to see if we could make this one sustainable)

> I would _much_ rather live in a nice house in a nice area with exciting things to do from my mid 20's onwards and enjoy those things for years and years and years, rather than live in a smaller/cheaper/farther out place so that I can retire 10 years earlier and start living.

That's a false dichotomy. You can retire at least 25-30 years earlier than normal if you are a bit mindful of your spending and earn a decent salary. That makes the decision a bit harder doesn't it? Be frugal in your 20s and 30s, retire at 35-40 when you still mostly have your health, or so that you can actually focus on your health and increase your health span, and your 60s and 70s might be better than you expect. Whether this is worth it depends on your individual situation, how much do you earn, how painful is it for you to save, is there something you'd be retiring to, not just away from? I also wouldn't trade a life of misery for 10 retired years, but I don't think it's that simple.

If normal is 65, then you’re saying you can retire at 35. I have a great salary and I pretty much don’t spend except necessities (rent, food, clothes, healthcare). I’m not even close.

> You can retire at least 25-30 years earlier than normal if you are a bit mindful of your spending and earn a decent salary

I love how detached from reality some people on HN are. I assume by "decent salary" you mean $150k+ per year?

least disconnected from reality HN user

Not everyone finds 'the work' to be an interrupt either, to be fair. Sometimes the work is the fulfilling part of life, its not having more traditional societal roles. Not to say family and friends aren't important, they absolutely are, but the way I think of it is this way:

When I started working on my own independent venture, I was worried about time. I'm not in a position to quit my job, and I don't think its going to be a VC thing. So I was struggling to find time, so I timed everything I did in a day.

When I did that, I found time I used to idle (IE, not simply relaxing or taking needed down time) with TV watching to be a few hours a day. Didn't even realize it was something I did, it was simply baked into the nightly routine.

Once I replaced that time with working time, I was able to get alot farther along. I suspect if my idea ever takes off, I can examine things more closely and find and shift more time like this.

This is all to say, that you can still enjoy working, prioritize work, but not leave family and friends completely in the lurch at the same time.

All that said: IMO, if you're putting in the hours, do it for yourself, unless you're either moving up to an executive role (or equivalent) at a company where you can cash out big, you're unfortunately a cog in the machine. The best course of action if you really love your work, is to find a sustainable way to work for yourself.

I’m curious how you maintain the energy to work those free moments. I find myself too tired from work and my social / physical hobbies that when I do have the time, I only have the brain power to play games or watch TV.

In those circumstances, I treat it as a form of self care because it lets me recharge for the next day of work and doing fun stuff with friends or playing hockey or whatever

Yeah, I often feel like I run out of energy more frequently than running out of time.

Optimizing away minor nuisances has helped for me but still I'd love to be able to utilize my time fully.

> I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. (...)

The saddest thing I ever witnessed in a FANG was a participant of one of those workplace empowerment events. Even though her interview was focused on her bending over backwards to praise their employer's health insurance, the devil was in the details.

The interviewee was praising her employer for providing a nice health insurance, but she mentioned as side-notes that throughout her career she felt so much pressure to perform that she postponed having children until a point where her fertility doctor warned her that she might risk not be able to have children. When she finally felt her job was secured, she decided to not focus on her career anymore and finally went ahead with having children. Except that she was already in her 40s. She had to undergo a couple of years worth of fertility treatments until she finally managed to get pregnant, which was supposedly the focus of her intervention because her employer was so awesome for allowing her to seek medical treatments.

Everyone decides what's best for themselves, but being robbed of having children because you want to bend over backwards for your employer sounds like an awful tradeoff.

It's a tough trade off. On the one hand, having a child in your 20's is how our biology is wired. On the other hand, in the modern age, those are also prime years for work and professional growth; I get it.

Last year, I (in my 40's) did a trip to Terceira[0] and after a few days of hiking, had shooting pain in my knee. I immediately wondered if I had torn something! It would be quite the pickle since I had traveled with a backpack. Luckily, it was ITBS (Iliotibial band syndrome) and went away with some Acetaminophen and rest.

But it made me regret that in my 20's I spent more time playing computer games than doing things like this hike that would be even challenging if I were to wait until I retired.

[0] https://youtu.be/DlFKc4OfbpM Terceira is a spectacular destination, by the way, and easy to access from JFK.

20s in tech is basically show up, do your work, and get paid a pittance of the value it generates.

That's just "employment", or at least "not realising how many other people contribute to that value".

Sure. But the pay gap can be huge compared to your 30s, regardless of your ability level.

It applies to those other people as well, though.

When you get down to it, all profit any company makes is quite literally the value generated by its employees that was extracted from them.

All profit made by an employee is value invested by a business' owners and creditors extracted from it.

So what? You just seem to have found a perjorative way to describe work. If I pay someone to fix my tap the comfort I have now my taps work comes from me "extracting" value from the plumber?

And it's worse than that. Profit isn't just employee work. If I buy a robot to replace an employee, I might have more profit. And it's not just that work. It's also contracts with other suppliers, and risks, and debt to pay back, and decisions made, and agreements and relationships, and automation.

The loss of work for its centering, routine, mental challenges, socialization across the generations, and sense of accomplishment is harmful to mental and even physical health.

Sure, a construction worker can't be climbing the rafters at 80 years old, but this idea that we just transition to leisure and getting together with friends at a certain point is both fairly novel and of dubious value.

I don't think that's contradictory to OP though. You can find enrichment and fulfillment in work, while also maintaining balance with the other aspects of life.

The idea of retirement is literally thousands of years old at this point. Hell the Roman Empire even had the idea of pensions though it wasn’t that common at the time.

Aging inherently means being unable to be an independent productive member of society at some point. (Ed: well past what we consider retirement age.) Historically in agrarian societies few people reached this point so it wasn’t generally a significant burden to support them. What changed is lowering the retirement age and increased the number of people who live long enough to see it.

> Historically in agrarian societies few people reached this point so it wasn’t generally a significant burden to support them

This isn't true.

https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/blog/2024/08/15/three-scor...

> ...in England, average life expectancy at birth varied between 35 and 40 years in the centuries between 1600 and 1800. It is a common misconception that, when life expectancy was so low, there must have been very few old people. In fact, the most common age for adult deaths was around 70 years, in line with the Biblical three score years and ten.

Yep, infant mortality skews the average and has often led to this kind of misconception

You misunderstood what I was describing. 70 year olds can be quite productive doing manual labor in a way that basically no 90 year olds can.

Except for, perhaps, Clint Eastwood.

I was thinking about John B Goodenough

Or Michaelangelo.

Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni, didn’t survive to 90.

There are options other than working to the exclusion of other fulfillment right up until a specific age cutoff and then having zero work.

Honestly saving all of that until retirement is not a great idea when you look at how many people die in their 60s and 70s and that if you have children and raise a family that's going to happen well before retirement as well.

You can also find routine, mental challenges, and socialization across the generations without "working" in the traditional sense of a full time job for an employer or your own business.

There are lots of ways to balance these things out, and to find that balance along the way instead of hoping you'll find it in some theoretical future retirement.

That Samsung exec that died suddenly recently at 63 from cardiac arrest[0]?

You wonder: yeah, this guy made a fortune, but did he get to enjoy his life? If he had just stepped back and said, "I'm going to take a break and take it easy" on his 60th, would he still be alive?

[0] https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/24/tech/samsung-co-ceo-han-jong-...

You can work, can do all that, without big w Work as the only format. Surely if society can compel people into work as a means to accomplish those positive ends you mentioned, it can be made in a way that still pushes towards those positive ends without many of the drawbacks our current system comes along with.

> Sure, a construction worker can't be climbing the rafters at 80 years old, but this idea that we just transition to leisure and getting together with friends at a certain point is both fairly novel and of dubious value.

Peopled died and killed for the right to a pension. And many more are still fighting for it around the world. To disregard that so costly-gain right so lightly seems quite a privileged position.

A cosy job, stress-free, well paid, creative... may be worth keeping if you do not have hobbies nor family. But that is not the case for most people. Rich people lives longer than the poor, job conditions is one important factor.

How exactly could those people get the right to a pension from the unborn? A scam is a scam, but all Ponzi schemes blow up in the end.

> The loss of work for its centering, routine, mental challenges, socialization across the generations, and sense of accomplishment is harmful to mental and even physical health.

Most jobs aren't any of these though. With automation and the shift to a service economy jobs have became more and more alienating

I have enough hobbies/interests/projects and community engagement that I’m not super worried about what I’ll do when I retire. This isn’t true for everyone but it would be good for society in the US if we focused less on work and more on joy.

There is still a rather large area of things that you can do that are not passive sitting-on-couch/sipping-cocktails "leisure" but are nevertheless not classed as "work" because there is no monetary compensation (hobbies being a nice example). Especially if you are self-motivated, you don't need monetary compensation and a boss to tell you what to do, and still enjoy all the benefits of "work".

Speaking as a person who can’t see themselves stop working, I think an important factor is how one derives meaning from their life. For some it might be living amazing experiences, and for others it can be in helping others (which could qualify as work). The healthiest seems to be a combination of the two, with a different ratio depending on the person.

Here in the Netherlands it’s common to see retired people do volunteering work, as it can bring great pleasure and satisfaction to help people. There’s of course also the communal aspect of it.

It’s also common to see business owners for example in family businesses to keep working at the company after the official retirement age.

So I’d argue work does not have to be a chore and can be a source of meaning and purpose. But if it is just a means to an end, it makes sense to not want to work your entire life and good labor and retirement laws should protect people from having to work their entire life.

"Work" here I would define as exchanging time for money.

Volunteering is not work.

For me personally, I make a distinction between "working" and "creating". I will always want to create (a very broad term), but I will not always want to work. In fact, I don't want to work now; I only want to create. The best is when I can exchange my creation for money -- then it is no longer work.

No, work is effort expended to achieve a result. Whether it's paid or not is irrelevant, and many people work harder for free than they ever do in employment, because the incentives are right.

> Whether it's paid or not is irrelevant

When someone contemplates the wisdom of an entrepreneur who says he’s going to work until he dies, they’re not worried he might volunteer too much.

That's short-sighted. Most entrepreneurs, once they're financially stable, work for reasons other than money.

> No, work is effort expended to achieve a result

By this definition, going to the toilet is "work". If that's the case, I never want to get to a point where I stop working.

I like to use a fuzzy definition (though, all definitions are fuzzy—what's a chair? Good luck...) based on whether it's common for someone with the means to do so, to pay others to do it for them, by choice and not due to disability or something like that.

Taking a shit? Not work. Cleaning the toilet? Work.

Eating dinner? Not work. Cooking dinner? Work.

Playing badminton on your lawn? Not work. Mowing the lawn? Work.

Napping on your Ikea couch? Not work. Assembling that couch? Work.

How do you define "retirement"?

When you have enough money that you no longer do work for more?

What do you call it when you have enough money but you choose to continue anyway?

Well, it is, and the workload of ablution becomes greater as you age.

In the context of this discussion, the result has to be of value to someone else, that's all. Then you can haggle over how valuable it is. When it is for yourself, the currency is time and energy; you ponder how much to invest on one task versus another.

This is a useless definition, especially in this context. Washing my dishes is not work, because it's ultimately irrelevant whether I do it or not, although I'm doing it still because I have a result in mind.

It also comes across as very out of touch and privileged, because unless you have a relatively cushy job, you would definitely not see the difference between being paid or not as irrelevant. There are plenty of people who have to work very hard just to make ends meet, be it physically exhausting work, or repetitive and monotonous work. And they will not have the capacity to work even harder once they clock out of work, no matter the incentives, because they'll be spent and unable to.

> This is a useless definition, especially in this context.

No, it's a very apt and useful definition. It's just not one you appreciate.

> It also comes across as very out of touch and privileged, because unless you have a relatively cushy job, you would definitely not see the difference between being paid or not as irrelevant.

This comment is a straw man, because I didn't say pay was irrelevant. I said work is work whether you're paid or not.

It also ironically shows that you are out of touch and privileged, as your comment completely ignores two of the heaviest workloads in the world, housework and child-rearing. Neither are generally paid and both are most definitely work.

Only a completely out-of-touch and privileged person could think otherwise.

You might enjoy a fella named marx. Labor is labor, my friend. It should be mostly devoted to things that enrich the lives of us and those around us. It is normal to want to work. It is the alienating nature of selling our labor for a pittance that ruins our lives.

Then sell your labour for more than a pittance, if you're just haggling over the price.

Ahh, silly me, I should have just starved on the streets until someone recognized my value.

Unless you're in a country that embraced the teachings of Marx, you're more likely to die from too much food than not enough, or a class-based murder spree.

In Americas, the country with more famines is Haiti. In the world is Somalia. Both were victims of capitalist countries, they were never socialists.

"I work at a nonprofit"

"I worked on my yard today"

Your definition is arbitrary and goes against the established use of the word. Work can be many things. When people say they don't want to stop working, they are just saying they want to keep changing the world in big or small ways until they die.

I wish I could do unpaid volunteer work and still afford live. By which I mean, I really hate that certain kinds of work are not deemed worthy enough of financial compensation, yet are still beneficial to people and society at large.

My grandfather was a doctor and lived a modest life. But he worked all his life. In his 70s he was still volunteering at a local hospice. In fact on his 78th birthday, he went to work in the morning, then attended his birthday party, then had a stroke and died a few weeks later. He never

> swam with whales, explored dense Amazonian jungles, climbed snowy mountains, explored the countless alleys and backstreets of Tokyo, etc.

But I think he enjoyed his life just as it was.

The travel things you describe to me are work (in a good way) getting away from it all can give you the clarity to know what big moves to make. I recently went to Tokyo and didn't touch work at all. The only way!

For those who can't afford that like the sister comment you can explore your own city (or suburbia or countryside). Everywhere is exotic to someone. In all 3 cases a bicycle does a good job!

I always think this is very biased. Basically there are two things to consider:

1. People at deathbed usually don't think very clearly, and it suggests the deathbed experience overrules everything before

2. Many people just have work. They don't have a calling, and neither do they have a career. It does sound reasonable to drop work for something else, as long as money is fine.

Excellent points.

Considering I have heard these "Deathbed Quotes" so many times with similar sounding refrain I am just inclined to ignore them.

And most people I know and see do drop work for family and friends ever so often as much their situation permits.

> And most people I know and see do drop work for family and friends ever so often as much their situation permits.

Your experiences today may well be the result of this idea becoming more and more pervasive over the past 30 or so years, and the resulting reduction in employee loyalty to their employers.

To be honest this loyalty thing seems to me was promoted by corporate management hucksters and now no loyalty phenomenon is getting promoted by alternate lifestyle peddlers. Most people I have seen at work and outside in all these years just work enough that bleak alternatives don't become reality.

Yeah, the usual corporate management stock basically stays in a place for a few years, do something (probably better if they just do nothing), then jump to another one.

There are two sorts, one eventually jumps to politics, and one stays in more modern software companies and eventually jumps to VC.

I hate that quote, it is so trite and stupid.

What poor person wouldn't want to have provided more for their family. What scientist would say I discovered enough. What engineer would say I built enough.

When you are alone who or what do you think about? People have different goals, dreams and desires. Claiming yours are the only ones worthy of pursuing seems rather arrogant.

I retired last year. Decided I’ve got enough money to last me the rest of my life if I live reasonably, and that’s good enough for me. I have a 40 hour a week job doing development, but it’s a passion project that I’m doing purely for enjoyment (and I’m working completely for equity). I felt my life instantly get easier the moment I quit my old job. It’s conceivable that this job will make me a pile of money, but I know it isn’t likely. I see my kids a lot more, I take time off when I need it, and I still feel like I’m doing something useful. I have decided that this is truly the way to live.

First, you can do all those things while you work. They are called vacations, and in most of the World, you get 5 weeks/year minimum. With the rise of remote work, and nomadic lifestyles, you might even be able to do this while working in different ways.

A few people have said they can empathise with the notion of never retiring - which I think is a different thing - and I can kind of understand that too.

Work doesn't need to be 40+ hours/week of grind, and it doesn't need to be something you don't enjoy. Making money from those side projects - that can be your work. The reason why so many people want to be influencers, is because their work becomes something fun, where they learn, and where they create. I can imagine doing that for a long time.

So while I can't imagine working in a corp environment doing 40+ hours/week when I'm 70, can I imagine having my own side business? Maybe a few non-exec directorships? Perhaps help with a fractional/part-time gig one or two days a week? Sure.

Can I imagine just being on holiday for the rest of my life, where I'm constantly "exploring", or "experiencing" and never "applying" or "creating"? Not so much.

The old saying goes that if you earn money doing what you love, you never work a day in your life - and that might be where there's a disconnect, you're interpreting work as something not enjoyable, whereas for many of us, there's really deep pleasure in some aspects of it. All we want to do is dial that bit up, dial the other stuff down, and still do all those other things you mentioned too, perhaps as part of the "work".

I’m happily married, have plenty of friends and family and I don’t see myself not working until someone won’t hire me. I’m 50.

My wife and started traveling a lot after Covid lifted and I started working remotely. We did the “digital nomad” thing for a year across the US until the year before last and even since then we are on a plane to do something for fun around a dozen times a year. Going forward, we have 6-8 “vacations” planned per year for the next few years and sometimes we stay in another city for a month at a time.

This was before I had unlimited PTO and plan on averaging 30 days a year. Work isn’t a limiting factor.

It’s a lot easier to spend $20K-$30K+ a year (plus playing the credit card points game) when you have income coming in. Also everything you mentioned is a lot easier to do when you are young and healthy than when you are 65.

I couldn’t possibly see having our travel schedule later in life. True we aren’t “young”. But we are both gym rats

I'm part of the GenX crowd here. I can't imagine a day when I am not building or solving something.

same here, until I closed our startup ~6 months ago and decided to do nothing after 19 years of working hard and pushing upwards. I lived with my partner so I wasn't paying rent, and now I changed my mind about retiring - I can't wait. I still got to dabble, I helped a founder friend with her core tech, I visited friends, played a bunch of video games, spent more time with my partner, and I loved it. Time felt comfy, I purposefully was not looking for work, my stress levels went down, I walked my dog at least an hour a day. I'm now going back to work, even harder problems and responsibilities, and while I'm likely to enjoy that, I am now looking forward to when I don't have to (assuming that happens)

That's different from working (as the exchange of your time for money).

I love building stuff, I love creating things. If I can exchange those things that I want to create for money, that's a bonus, but I create because I enjoy that process not because I intend to exchange that time for money.

> the exchange of your time for money

That's employment.

Not everyone has the money to swim with whales or explore jungles. And even among the few that do, many would rather spend thier money on uplifting other people than self-indulgent ecotourism. Many would rather work until they die in full knowledge that doing so might help free thier children from work altogether. And a fair number still see productive work as a greater good than sloth or vanity.

You can go hike the Appalachian Trail for free. Explore national parks for a nominal fee. Explore the sights and sounds of your nearest city without much cost at all.

I have rent and calorie upkeep costs

I saw an interview with Cesar Milan a few years back where he talked about how he survived after first coming to the US. He said something to the effect of (paraphrasing)

    > "America is amazing, you could get two hotdogs for $1 at 7-11. That's all I needed to survive."

When we visited Tokyo last year, we ended up eating a lot of 7-11 onigiri for breakfast as there weren't many places open when we were up and heading out. $2 will take you a surprisingly long way if you're not picky.

The same for housing. I know folks that are making mid 6-figures who live in shared houses because housing is not something that they value; it's a place for them to sleep at night.

It's about what you value and then how you exchange your time on Earth.

> That's all I needed to survive.

That sounds like a pretty grim way to live. As a tech worker, I’d rather “live” than survive. Each to their own.

> It's about what you value and then how you exchange your time on Earth.

I think you should take a look at this thread with this comment in mind - not everyone else values the same things as you and that’s ok.

$2 7-11 onigiri is surprisingly good!

Along the same lines, my parents - immigrants into the US in the late-80s - would always tell me that food in the US is cheap. Granted, this was more true for restaurant/fast-food prior to a few years ago. But the point still holds for grocery store items if you know how to cook/shop.

Not sure if you meant hiking the whole AT or not, but thru-hiking the AT costs an estimated $1k per month (most thru-hikers take 5-7 months and spend about 5-7 grand). Equipment, food, occasional lodging and doing nice things on the way, and you'll still likely have to be paying all your normal expenses while you're doing it.

I would like to have some meaningful part-time work when I retire.

Sure, I garden, landscape, play with my tractor, spend more time playing guitar than any other hobby and go to the gym 3 times a week, but I would still want some sort of additional "purpose" to keep me engaged with society (I'm not exactly an introvert but left purely to my own devices I tend to entertain myself pretty solitarily).

I help out at the local library part time. You meet a variety of people (some you know already) and can help them in some way. You're also exposed to a wide range of humanity from assisting kid's activities (fun!) to tolerating confused transients (less fun.)

A (plant) nursery, a library, elections are all stuff that I've considered.

Thanks for reinforcing the library thing (I live in a somewhat rural area so maybe different issues there).

I've also thought about machine operating in landscaping (I know how to run a tractor and a skid steer so I think I would pick up an excavator pretty quickly) but I worry they won't want a part-timer.

I probably say something similar to this. I plan to create for the rest of my life. I'm also trying to build a business out of this because I hope that someday it will give me even more freedom and maybe even extend that to my kids and grandkids, if I were successful enough. It also means that I can set my own priorities. I'll likely retire when I'm 65 (too late but I don't think I'll be prepared enough to do it earlier) and continue to "work" on my own stuff, maybe until I die.

But, yes, I've seen some of the world and I want to see more of it. I have a couple groups of friends that hang out more than once a month and I've traveled with them multiple times this year. I have family that I see pretty often. There's really not enough time for all the stuff I do but I'm still driven to create.

> “When I’m on my deathbed, I won’t look back at my life and wish I had worked harder. I’ll look back and wish I spent more time with the people I loved.”

On the other hand; when they interview people and ask them to "give advice to your younger self", I can't count how many times the guy / girl said: "work harder in school".

Ultimately it's all about balance, money absolutely does buy happiness; and so does doing an interesting job. Reach a point where you have enough money that it does not occupy a significant portion of your mind; and work hard enough to reach a position where you don't look at the clock the moment you arrive at your workplace.

Been there and done many of the things you described, have a family today and I still love being a founder and working very long weeks. I know not everyone is like this though.

The only unmet desire I have left to work towards is to serve others and improve everyone else's life. And building a big successful business is the best way to maximize that desire. The clearest derivatives of my work efforts are the great jobs and work created for everyone at the company and the improvement on our customers lives.

> I completely get the drive to create; I have various side projects I make for fun and to learn.

Some of my side projects would be straight up finically impossible if I didn't have willing buyers for the product. I agree that creation is my ultimate motivation, but so long as I continue to enjoy and wish to pursue this those specific modes of creation, I have to accept that it will also be work. Perhaps that is where those other perspectives are also coming from?

A lifetime is a long time. Viewpoints, opinions, standpoints, circumstances and plans rarely last a lifetime.

I don't think it's that crazy in certain careers; I've seen a similar sentiment in academics.

Back in grad school, we had several professors emeriti who were teaching a class or two, or collaborating with a lab, because they just enjoyed it.

I think you might be creating a backstory for this person without any knowledge to ground it on. That's inevitable, we all do it, but be careful about drawing conclusions based on unevidenced assumptions.

I do think some individuals much prefer work over family or friends since 'work' relations are professional, formal and regulated while personal relationships lack those and are chaotic and random.

Is that a feeling that might best be appreciated by folks 'on the spectrum'? For me, robotic corporate relationships where my paycheck (which goes to food and rent) might be jeopardized, stresses me way more than a spat with a friend that's forgotten in a month.

Come to think of it, maybe you're right. The "robotic" feeling is translated well to orderly decorum for me

An interesting, even powerful statement about social norms in corporate culture!

I think it boils down to differences of point of view. One enjoys travel, one enjoys work, one get satisfaction from creating art, one enjoys being athletic, one wants to do it all. All perspectives are valid and none is better than the other. I think the world would be pretty boring if everyone thought the same way and acted the same way.

IMO what matters in all this is not identifying with the activity or people. Of course work and employers can disappoint you, but so do people who you love. Your partner might leave you, your kids might disappoint you, your friends might become busy and distance themselves from you. What if there is an accident and cannot travel the world anymore? Where does that leave you? All those destinations and experiences, and you cannot experience them.

I think Woody Allen says it best:

"It’s just an accident that we happen to be on earth, enjoying our silly little moments, distracting ourselves as often as possible so we don’t have to really face up to the fact that, you know, we’re just temporary people with a very short time in a universe that will eventually be completely gone. And everything that you value, whether it’s Shakespeare, Beethoven, da Vinci, or whatever, will be gone. The earth will be gone. The sun will be gone. There’ll be nothing. The best you can do to get through life is distraction. Love works as a distraction. And work works as a distraction. You can distract yourself a billion different ways. But the key is to distract yourself."

Except the key is not to distract yourself but instead try to know yourself deep down. And you reach a point where there is no destination, person, job, or activity that holds your happiness hostage, everything is just is and you go with the flow.

Lost my grandpa a couple years ago and he said almost exactly “I wish I hadn’t worked so hard” on his deathbed.

Honestly - leave the whale, jungles, and over-touristed Tokyo-ites alone.

Travel lightly, get a feel for different environments and cultures, then take that perspective to your hometown.

Travel is frosting. The cake can be building a meaningful life that involves community, maybe family, and possibly meaningful work.

I worked remotely from Tenerife last year. I was there two months, at first it was great, everything new and novel. But it wears off and towards the end of my stay I longed for home, community and my usual routine.

The best balance is occaisonal "pattern interrupts" like travel abroad (or within your own country). You do not necessarily need big sweeping vacations or "experiences". A bike ride in a forest for a few days with a friend you have not seen for months can give you that mental refreshment.

This is such a retarded modern take on things, not everyone derives meaning from checking off a bucket list they read about on some internet listicle. For some of us, creating and contributing is the goal.

That wasn't the point and you've completely misread it. The very first point was "family and friends" and for me, travel is something that helps me experience the broader world. It's not a bucket list, it's the fact that this world is immense, filled with experiences and that we only have one lifetime to find those experiences that enrich our short time here.

The hypothetical question is is whether this individual has already experienced everything there was to experience and decided "No, working 9-9 is what I value in life!"

> The hypothetical question is is whether this individual has already experienced everything there was to experience and decided "No, working 9-9 is what I value in life!"

This is a foolish question.

A person can’t experience “everything” even if given a life of 10,000 years.

Everybody has to decide what they value in life before experiencing everything.

The question is whether someone has decided that the thing they’re doing is what they personally find value in or not.

The alternative which I’ll admit is sad (and which is not what you have said to this point) is that someone is doing something that they do not find value in. Your whole point has been that working is not a good way to spend limited life, without acknowledging that what you call work someone else calls enrichment.

The irony of this statement is; most of the people who have adopted the views you're criticizing used to believe what you believe. I am one of those individuals.

I used to think that my worth could be measured by the amount of work that I produced. That there was some big tally board and everytime I did something valuable I would get a "tick" and that the "ticks" would eventually be tallied up and there would be some reward. Some relief. Something.

Only after having been literally told "This is my company, my revenue, my profit, and there's no relief coming for you no matter how hard you try" by not one, but TWO different employers did I finally start to adopt the thinking of prioritizing my own well being.

And only after prioritizing my own well being did I develop this sense of value in things I enjoy. Armed with the knowledge about the value of myself I was able to finally prioritize between work and home.

I highly recommend the book "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck" by Mark Manson. It is really good at demonstrating how "if everything is sacred, then nothing is sacred."

Jesus christ, used to believe what I believe? bro there's literally a pop self-help recommendation at the bottom of your reply. I guess we should be grateful it's not a ted talk or betterhelp.com review.

No one is measuring your soul by jira task completions.

What I'm saying is such a 'live, laugh, love' philosophy (but with more profanity) is equivalent to jira task completions and your soul is measured entirely differently.

> Jesus christ, used to believe what I believe? bro there's literally a pop self-help recommendation at the bottom of your reply. I guess we should be grateful it's not a ted talk or betterhelp.com review.

Have you read the book? It sounds like you could use some of it's teachings. Or maybe you'd be amused by them. Either way, this reads like a Reddit comment. Please try harder.

> No one is measuring your soul by jira task completions.

Your words, not mine.

> What I'm saying is such a 'live, laugh, love' philosophy

Really? Here's what you said.

> This is such a retarded modern take on things, not everyone derives meaning from checking off a bucket list they read about on some internet listicle. For some of us, creating and contributing is the goal.

Can you point out the "live, laugh, love" for me?

Maybe the person just doesn’t care about swimming with whales or having friends? Does everybody really think the dense Amazon jungle is neat?

You’re projecting what you think makes life worth living onto someone else.

Can you really not imagine that for another person working is what they love as much as you seem to love climbing snowy mountains?

> Life is too short

I agree with this. It’s too short to think about how someone else is spending theirs.

You're missing the forest for the trees.

You have one lifetime on this Earth and it is a big place with many experiences and sights. Do not regret in the end that you exchanged too much of that one lifetime for money rather than enriching it with many experiences be it with family, friends, or even by oneself.

Your trees are not someone else’s trees.

Is someone who climbs snowy mountains for a living (but who loves working on spreadsheets) trading too much of their one lifetime for money?

Different things enrich different people’s lives.

Can you not imagine that what you call “work” is the experience that gives this person enrichment?

To be honest from what I can see it seems like you are the person with a narrow worldview.

    > Your trees are not someone else’s trees

I never said they were; only that life is short -- find your forest. Quoting myself:

    > Had they already experienced everything good there is to experience in this one lifetime that they were so bored of it that they would prefer to work instead?

And I'm pretty certain that forest isn't exchanging your limited time in life for money. I'm giving concrete examples, not exclusive examples.

Touch grass, my friend, and find your forest.

You’re changing your tune pretty quick here and have artfully dodged essentially all of my questions.

> I'm pretty certain that forest isn't exchanging your limited time in life for money

A simple question — what if your forest happens to hand you money back? Are you still “pretty certain” of this?

If you're reading r/startups or r/entrepreneur, I suspect original OP drives some satisfaction and meaning from building a money-making machine themselves.

Not everyone wants to travel the world their entire life, and working is an experience in itself that similarly may not resonate with everyone.

Millions of people have lived lives they have found very fulfilling within 20km of where they were born. It's great you're finding a joy in travelling the world, but not everyone wants that.

Many people work until they die and still have friends and family that they love and spend time with. Many even have none and still lead a life they're happy with.

Traveling all over the world is very bad for the environment and climate...

When I'm on my deathbed, I'll probably wish I'd worked harder - on trying to stop Israel (= where I live) 's genocide in Gaza. That's what I feel most guilty about.

Not to derail the convo, but I’m curious - do you feel extremely in the minority being a citizen of Israel who is anti-Palestinian genocide? I guess I’m curious if expressing that publicly is dangerous or would cause people to keep their distance

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