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Comment by ipsento606 | Hacker News Reader

> Phones have displaced paper money and credit cards as the preferred way to pay for a bill at the end of a meal

this is 100% unrelatable to me

I have never once used my phone to pay in a sit-down restaurant. I have only seen someone else use their phone when forced to, such as due to a forgotten wallet, and with much fussing and apologizing

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Do you ever use your phone to pay anywhere? It's possible the process has evolved since you last used it. I use Apple Pay for 99% of all transactions and it's by far the fastest, most convenient for all parties method. They ask how I want to pay, I say credit, I double click the side of my phone and wave it over the reader. The entire process takes approximately 2 seconds.

Sometimes when traveling my credit card will get blocked and only then is there much fussing and apologizing as I attempt to find cash or pay with a physical credit card.

I think it's an age thing. Most of us that were around prior to the iPhone still whip out plastic to pay for things as it's been formed habit for so long.

I’m 58 and use my Apple Watch for pretty much everything. I only carry a single card for those rare times where I enter an establishment that does not have a chip reader.

I love it not only for convenience, but for the security as well. I don’t have to worry about a potential pickpocket seeing where I keep my wallet or how much cash is on me. I keep my transit pass on my watch for the same reason.

i'm 38 and pretty much only use cash.

I was about 30 when Apple Pay/Google Pay showed up; I use it fairly exclusively now. If nothing else it is much _faster_.

(Before that I was mostly using card-based tap-to-pay, but that has the disadvantage that there's a limit both on transaction size and on transactions since last validation, after which it requires pin validation. The phone-based solution don't have this; being able to unlock the phone satisfies the PSD2 requirements.)

If nothing else it is much _faster_.

It used to be. But in a lot of the places I shop, it's not anymore. Especially the supermarket. And Target!

  Enter your store rewards card number.  Skip.

  Do you want to pay with your store card? No.

  Do you want to donate to our charity of the month? No.

  Do you want to round up your total to save the dying baby whales?  No.

  Tap, insert or swipe.  Wave the phone around the payment pad to find the invisible, not marked sweet spot so it bleeps.

  Oh, it's a debit card! Enter your PIN.  Push. Push. Push. Push.

  Do you want cash back?  No.

  Confirm the total.  Push.

  Do you want your receipt printed, e-mailed, or not at all?  Not at all.

  Transaction complete.

Versus cash:

  Your total is $28.52.  Hand over $40.00.

  Teller puts the bills in the slot, and the machine tells her how many bills of which denominations to give me, while my coins slide down the little chute into the change tray.

And I'm gone.

In Europe you just tell and your are gone.

But funding the oayment spot in a new place indeed looks like waving a magic wand

At least in Europe, the tap to pay restrictions were relaxed in the last 2-3 years (differently in different countries)

Yeah, I'm amazed at how convenient tap to pay is now. It is almost always significantly faster than chip readers.

Strangely, it hasn't always been the case. Early on, I really wondered if the tech would catch on, as I had a lot of issues. Lots of places didn't support tap, or had the hardware but had it disabled. For some reason, it wasn't fast at all, often taking as long as a regular card too! And worse, a tap failure seemed to require the person at the register to have to cancel the transaction on their end to allow a retry. They weren't used to tap-to-pay and would often act annoyed.

Somewhere along the way, this all changed. Taps are near instant, they rarely fail, and they usually reset pretty quickly when they do! I'd guess a lot of people who are hesitant were bitten by some of the early problems and don't realize how much smoother it all is now.

For me it comes down to security and convenience. My phone is secure, if it's stolen or lost, my payment methods are safe. If my wallet or credit card is lost, I'm canceling cards, watching my credit report, etc. I'm an old guy btw from long before the iPhone =)

Also an old guy, but I use my phone less and less to pay for things. In the major U.S. city where I live, it's not that common. And even after ten years, paying with my Apple Watch still gets stares and remarks. But that could be just that I don't frequent the sort of places that are popular on social media.

If my wallet or credit card is lost, I'm canceling cards, watching my credit report, etc.

If my wallet or credit card are stolen, I go on the bank's web site and mark them as such, and the transactions are automatically blocked by the bank and a replacement card is FedExed to me the next day. Credit report? I'm not sure how that relates to losing a wallet. I don't keep my mortgage details in my pocket.

If my phone gets lost? I don't care that much. But based on what I read on HN, people will be locked out of their bank accounts, their cars, their homes, and everything else in their lives. They won't even be able to call a loved one for help because they don't know anyone's phone number.

People on HN rail against single points of failure. Putting your entire life and trust into a piece of glass is the definition of single point of failure.

If my card is lost, I notify the bank and all transactions are cancelled, involved the ones before the notice.

I may need to pay 150 or 250€ (cannot remember) max, and that's the limit of my liability. I would like to see the bank that will try to make me pay that, it happens once and they backtracked immediately when I told them I am closing my account then.

We do not have the US credit thing, so no repairs to watch.

This said, I am 100% with you on the security of phones vs cards.

I’m with OP and, no, I never use my phone to pay for things. It just seems like a gimmick that I don’t feel the need to bother with. I carry my wallet more often than I carry my phone, so it makes sense for me.

How many times in your life have you forgotten a credit card at a restaurant? For me it is one time. For my father it was three.

Not a high frequency problem, but a chore all the same.

If I left a card at a restaurant, I would block that card and have the issuer send a new one to my home address. It would really not be a chore at all

Ok, repeat that but in a foreign country.

I would have to use a credit card that earns slightly worse points for the rest of the trip?

I've had my bank overnight a credit card to my hotel overseas before. Not an issue at all, simple to cancel with a toggle in the app or website. Also had them send a new debit card once because I grabbed an expired card without paying attention and couldn't get cash from an ATM once I got to the overseas location. I get foreign cash from my bank before leaving now. For countries that allow it.

You’re welcome to think otherwise but I think that’s pretty annoying

It happens to me maybe once every 5-10 years, whereas I open and close various credit card accounts several times a year. So for me it would be far more irritating to have to add and remove cards from my phone's virtual wallet several times a year than to potentially have to order a replacement card once every few years. Most phone wallets also don't give an option to provide a nickname for cards, which is extremely irritating if you have multiple cards from the same issuers, whereas with physical cards it takes a couple of seconds to add/remove cards from my wallet, or to make a note on a card with a sharpie.

> I open and close various credit card accounts several times a year

Crazy to me but ok

Some restaurants here in the US print a QR code on the check now. If you've got google pay/apple pay/whatever you can just scan it and immediately pay, then leave. There's also a few where you don't even need a server to order, you scan a code on the menu and can order whatever, a server delivers it, then you pay whenever and leave. It makes it really convenient when you go in with a bigger group. No worries about splitting bills, making sure everyone is ready to order, etc. Everyone can just order what they want, when they want, and all pay and leave when they want.

Is a tip still expected in that case?

A fuck-you solution would be - QR code includes tip, but you can wait for waiter if you don't wanna tip (or wanna tip more)

That really depends on where you live I guess.

Random anecdote from Estonia. I noticed around a year ago that I'm getting old - I was the only person in a restaurant that used his card to pay - everybody else used either their watch or phone. Since then, I've also upgraded/downgraded and started to use my phone for payments.. just because I don't wanna be _that_ dinosaur.

It's not always like that though - you still have lots of people using credit cards (or rarely cash) in grocery stores etc, but it does seem much more common for _the elderly_, like me, 40+ :P

It seems though that Estonia is at the bleeding edge of digitalization (at least compared to France where we are in the 17th century in comparison).

I will check myself in May when I spend a week in Tallin :)

>just because I don't wanna be _that_ dinosaur.

You need to get a little bit older, eventually you’ll find amusing to be the dinosaur surrounded by sheeps.

Same for me, completely unrelatable.

I know this is a bit of a bubble but all my friends that have androids have them rooted, so paying with our phones isn't even an option.

In general, I don't routinely carry a credit/debit card anymore; only exception is when I'm in the US, where it's still somewhat common to find swipe-only setups. I do normally carry a small amount of emergency paper money; if I'm visiting somewhere where paying with paper money is normal/preferred/mandatory (notably Germany), I'll have more.

But for normal usage, why would I carry around a card to tap on terminals when I can just tap a phone on them instead?

I think the US is possibly slightly behind the curve here because mobile terminals are a fairly new thing there; they mostly became common with Apple/Google Pay, so about ten years ago. In most of Europe, chip and pin became largely mandatory around the turn of the century, so people taking your card out the back to process it was no longer an option, and they pretty much had to have a solution that could come to the payer anyway.

I agree. I'm not sure I've ever even seen someone paying their restaurant bill with their phone.

I almost always pay my restaurant bills with my phone. Have been the case for maybe two years.

I just went to mainland Europe over Easter. The only payment method I ever used was my phone (Google Pay). Not just restaurants, but everything. This matched my observations of other people. I withdrew some Euros just in case, but did not use them.

You live in island Europe?

I see people pay with cash in the Netherlands, but half the time it's with card or mobile.

There are some rather notable European islands, but I see no indication that they claimed to live there.

(It's a joke)

(Ok, but was it a good one?)

It's still a common thing to say in the UK since we used to be island Europe. Speech habits take a while to change.

Hahaha

Also in Ireland, where we still are Island Europe.

The UK is still part of "Europe" the geographical region even if it's no longer part of the EU

I had never used phones to pay, or been with others who had used phones to pay, either.

When I pay by myself I always pay in cash, although I am usually with someone else who wants to pay by credit card (or sometimes by debit card). A signal does not seem needed though since they will just tell them they are ready and then will pay immediately when they have the bill ready. When I am by myself, I will pay in cash and I will try to pay in advance when I can (which has other advantages as well, such as to know the price and if I have the money to pay).

I never carry cash with me.

I almost always pay with my phone using tap.

Some restaurants have a fully online payment system where you get the bill on your phone and pay from there through some online payment system. I've seen this at airport restaurants, where it makes sense as you may be in a hurry and don't want to have to wait to get the server's attention. I wouldn't like it at normal sit-down restaurants in other situations.

I don't think this is a technology problem. There are lots of lo-tech ways of signaling that would like the cheque.

I haven't used a card or cash to pay at a restaurant during the last 5 years. It really depends where you are located.

never once used my phone either.

arguably, I don't want to. I have a credit card, I have cash. I have no reason to use a phone esp. in a situation where I have people literally waiting on me.

why do I tip these people if I have to do it all myself? might as well just order at the counter using my phone

You don't have to tip.

Believe it or not, most servers/staff at restaurants that do QR code and self-bussing don't care if you tip.

This has been my experience in the US, too. I was in Vancouver a few weeks ago, though, and tap to pay was universal there. Even at nice restaurants, the waiter would bring a Square terminal to the table. It really sped things up at the end of the meal, and I liked it.

The less time people have for the 25+% suggested tip amounts to sink in the better I guess.

Hm? It's literally double tapping the side button on my phone and holding it near their payment terminal for half a second until it says beep, exactly like with a debit card just slightly more convenient. Why would there be any fussing or apologising

Since moving to Ireland 2 years ago, I've maybe had to reach for my wallet maybe 5 times in total. These days it remains in the car or forgotten at home.

I pay for evertything with my phone.

Where do you live? Nearly every sit down restaurant I have gone to for the last year or so, the waiter has come to the table with a portable tap-to-pay.

Where are you? Even in a country as backwards banking wise as France I wrote say that 50% of people pay digitally, 49.9% cc and 0.1% cash.

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