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Comment by jjcob | Hacker News Reader

There is one argument for Synology doing this: There have been cases where hard drive companies mislead their customers. I personally fell victim to this when Western Digital started selling SMR drives as WD Red, without labelling them as SMR drives.

So lots of customers thought they were buying a drive that's perfect for NAS, only to discover that the drives were completely unsuitable and took days to restore, or failed alltogether. Synology had to release updates to their software to deal with the fake NAS drives, and their support was probably not happy to deal with all the angry customers who thought the problem was with Synology, and not Western Digital for selling fake NAS drives.

If you buy a drive from Synology, you know it will work, and won't secretly be a cheaper drive that's sold as NAS compatible even though it is absolutely unsuitable for NAS.

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That's a great argument for selling drives, not for locking your devices down to practically require them

For a BYOD product it would be fine to add a blacklist of DM-SMR drives imho. Or have a big red banner and a taint flag.

But that's not what Synology did.

Also, if the image on the Synology page is accurate, they are relabeled Toshiba drives. Which doesn't really seem a good choice for SMB/SOHO NAS devices, because the Toshiba "Machine Gun" MGxx drives are the loudest drives on the market.

I had some 12TB WD ultrastar that I happily replaced with some Toshiba MG09ACA18TE. To my ears at least the toshiba sound signficantly more bearable than the ultrastar were (lower pitch so less disturbing). Due to living in a small apartment my NAS is in my living room so noise matters.

That said, I've since added an ssd and moved almost everything to the ssd (docker, the database and all apps) and it's much nicer in term of noise.

It can't be programmatically identified because manufacturers actively hide them. There are ATA commands for that, DM-SMR drives lie to it.

I wouldn't be sure why Toshiba M-prefixed 7K2 drives would be bad for NAS use cases. They're descendants of what were used in high performance SPARC servers. Hot, dense, obnoxious, but that's just Fujitsu. They're plenty reliable, performant, and perfect for your all-important on-line/near-line data! You just have to look away from bills(/s).

0: https://www.techpowerup.com/265841/some-western-digital-wd-r...

1: https://www.techpowerup.com/265889/seagate-guilty-of-undiscl...

2: https://www.smartmontools.org/ticket/1313

TBF, the picture in TFA only shows rack-mounted Synology devices, where noise is not really a concern.

Synologoy SMB/SOHO NAS devices should not be affected by the drive lockdown (for now).

but that's the proposed change, that their Plus lineup which is generally targeted for SMB/SOHO/enthusiast market, will be working only with their drives

Then the photo with the U-factor servers is obvs. a distraction. Thanks for the clarification.

Per the article, it’s all “Plus” models from 2025 on, which definitely includes desktop 2-8 bay units.

I have been a happy enough Synology user since 2014, even though I had to hardware repair my main DS1815+ twice in that time (Intel CPU bug and ATX power-on transistor replacement).

Other than two hardware failures in 10 years (not good), the experience was great, including two easy storage expansions and the replacement of one failed drive. These were all BYOD, and the current drives are shucked WD reds with a white sticker (still CMR).

I happily recommended them prior to this change and now will have to recommend against.

So basically buy one of the older models now ?

Will new firmware updates to everything before this require the Synology branded drives ?

Seemingly not, at least not for the moment, based on the experiences of people migrating arrays [successfully] from older units and the massive backlash that would result if they trashed currently working arrays.

If you’re going to buy a DSM unit, I’d definitely buy a 2024 or earlier model. But even as an overall happy user under their old go-to-market approach, I can’t recommend them now.

> That's a great argument for selling drives, not for locking your devices down to practically require them

The counterargument is, people won’t listen and then blame Synology when their data is affected. At which point it may be too late for anything but attempting data recovery.

Sufficiently nontechnical users may blame the visible product (the NAS) even if the issue is some nuance to the parts choice made by a tech friend to keep it within their budget.

Synology is seen as the premium choice in the consumer NAS argument, so vertically integrating and charging a premium to guarantee “it just works” is not unprecedented.

There are definitely other NAS options as well, if someone is willing to take on more responsibility for understanding the tech.

I don’t think anyone would care if Synology gave priority to their own drives. A checkbox during setup that says “Yes, I know I’m using these drives that have not been validated blah blah blah” would be plenty. That’s not what Synology did however and that’s the main reason everyone is pissed.

Funny you mention that…

I have a DS1515+ which has an SSD cache function that uses a whitelisted set of known good drives that function well.

If you plug in a non whitelisted ssd and try to use it as a cache, it pops up a stern warning about potential data loss due to unsupported drives with a checkbox to acknowledge that you’re okay with the risk.

So…there’s really no excuse why they couldn’t have done this for regular drives.

That assumes that the person setting up the NAS is the same person using it, which is not going to be the case for non-tech-savvy users.

Everyone will understand it costing more, fewer people will understand why the NAS ate their data without the warning it was supposed to provide, because cheap drives that didn’t support certain metrics were used.

If Synology wants to have there be only one way that the device behaves, they have to put constraints on the hardware.

People are going to ignore that and leave bad reviews online, which will have compounding effects. SMR drives works in RAID until CMR buffer regions are depleted, and then RAID starts falling apart. This will undoubtedly create wrong impressions that Synology products, not the drives, are not trustworthy.

What if the device had a minimum benchmark feature that would test any new drive ? And fail the worst ones ?

SMR drives work like SSD: writes are buffered to CMR zone, consolidated into an SMR track data, copied into onboard cache RAM and written to SMR zone. SMR tracks has sizes of 128MB or so, and can be written or erased in track-at-once manners by the head half-overwriting data like moving a broad whiteboard marker slowly outward on a pottery wheel, rather than giving each rings of data enough separation. This works because the heads has higher resolution in radial direction in reads than writes; the marker tip is broader than what the disk's eyes can see.

This copy operation is done either while the disk is idling, or forced by stop responding to read and write operations if CMR buffer zone is depleted and data has to be moved off. RAID softwares cannot handle the latter scenarios, and consider the disk faulty.

You can probably corner a disk into this depleted state to expose a drive being SMR based, but I don't know if that works reliably or if it's the right solution. This is roughly all I know on technical side of this problem anyway.

But those people would call support when the array couldn’t rebuild. And many of them would blame Synology, and demand warranty replacement of the “defective” device, and generally cost money and stress.

As long as Synology is up front in the requirement and has a return policy for users who buy one and are surprised, I think they’re well within their rights to decide they’re tired of dealing with support costs from misbehaving drives.

As long as they don’t retroactively enforce this policy on older devices I don’t understand the emotionality here. Haven’t you ever found yourself stuck supporting software / systems / etc that customers were trying to cheap out on, making their problems yours?

It’s not that I don't understand. It’s that as an end user I don't give a shit.

Toyota might have great reasons for opening a chain of premium quality gas stations, but the second they required me to use them, I'd never buy another Toyota for as long as I lived.

I want to bring my own drives, just as I have since I bought my first DS-412+ 13 years ago.

> The counterargument is, people won’t listen and then blame Synology when their data is affected

I see this kind of arguments “X had to do Y otherwise customers would complain” a lot every time a company does something shady and some contrarian wants to defend them, but it really isn't as smart as you think it is: the company doesn't care if people complain, otherwise they wouldn't be doing this kind of move either, because it raises a lot more complaints. Company only care if it affects their bottom line, that is if they can be liable in court, or if the problem is big enough to drive customers away. There's no way this issue would do any of those (at least not as much as what they are doing right now, by a very large margin).

It's just yet another case of an executive doing a shady move for short terms profits, there's no grand reasoning behind it.

Your absolute conviction is misplaced. Support is expensive to provide, especially on hardware that’s expensive to ship around.

This may be a bad move, and you’re certainly right that Synology expects to make more profit with this policy than without it, but it’s a more complex system than you understand. Irate customers calling support and review-bombing for their own mistakes are a real cost.

I don’t blame Synology for wanting to sell fewer units at higher prices to more professional customers. Hobbyists are man attractive market but, well, waves hands at the comments in this thread.

The thing is, that more professional market would never make the mistake of putting SMR drives in a RAID array anyway and they are also (I hope) good enough at doing their own research to filter out reviews from uneducated retail consumers. So, again, we’re left with trying to find a justification for this move other than Synology’s profits.

And when this issue happened with WD drives, I don’t remember a backlash against Synology at all. WD, on the other hand, deserved and received plenty of blame.

Synology is in that "prosumer" space, though, where maybe you don't really want to sell to hobbyists - but the bulk of your hobbyists in this space are tech-savvy and will recommend your products at work if you don't alienate them.

Nobody blamed Synology when that WD SMR issue happened. Come on, let’s get real here. Locking the devices down so they only work with drives bearing Synology branding is about Synology’s profits.

> The counterargument is, people won’t listen and then blame Synology when their data is affected. At which point it may be too late for anything but attempting data recovery.

Is it though? Most (consumer) NAS systems are probably sold without the drives which are bough separately. When there is an issue with the drive and it breaks, I’m pretty sure most people technical enough to consider the need for a NAS would attribute that failure to the manufacturer of the drives, not to the manufacturer of the computer they put their drives into

I know a photographer who needs tech support for really anything, and who has bought drives and upgraded is NAS himself. I don’t think that’s unusual, but of course n=1.

I see your argument here and this could also be solved by some type of somewhat difficult flag that Synology could implement.

Meaning that by default it could require a Synology drive that is at minimum going to work decently.

Want to mess around more and are more technical ? Make it a CLI command or something the average joe is going to be wary about. With a big warning message.

Personally I only like to buy very reliable enterprise class drives (probably much better than whatever Synology will officially sell) and this is my main concern.

Which WD drives specifically were misleading customers?

It's fine to have 'Synology supported drives' which guarantee compatability, but requiring them is absolute bollocks.

WD Red drives. They released a new version of their WD Red drive, and the only difference they stated in the specs was that it had more cache. So I thought, great, this is their updated model with more cache, it's going to be faster.

After some time, people started to post about problems with the new WD Red drives. People had troubles restoring failed drives, I had a problem where I think the drives never stopped rewriting sectors (you could hear the hard drives clicking 24/7 even when everything was idle)

Then someone figured out that WD had secretely started selling SMR drives instead of CMR drives. The "updated" models with more cache were much cheaper disks, and they only added more cache to try and cover up the fact that the new disks suffored from catastrophic slowdowns during certain workloads (like rebuilding a NAS volume).

This was a huge controversy. But apparently selling SMR drives is profitable, so WD claims the problem is just that NAS software needs to be made compatible with SMR drives, and all is well. They are still selling SMR drives in their WD Red line.

Edit: Here's a link to one of the many forum threads where people discovered the switch: https://community.synology.com/enu/forum/1/post/127228

> the problem is just that NAS software needs to be made compatible with SMR drives

That's half of it ... maybe? Last time I looked drives that offer host managed SMR still weren't available to regular consumers. In theory that plus a compatible filesystem would work flawlessly. In practice you can't even buy the relevant hardware.

For future reference which WD drives are actually suitable for NAS? I remember someone saying you need to look for a specific more expensive type.

WD Red Plus -> CMR technnology, suitable for NAS

WD Red -> SMR technology, slightly cheaper, not suitable for NAS

…but still marketed for NAS users, alas.

I should have been more specific: not suitable for RAID NAS

RAID and NAS used to go together when drive capacities were lower. E.g. I had a 9TB NAS with RAID5 at times when 8TB drives were >$500 a pop. These days, NAS does not necessarily imply having a RAID setup. I see a new "build your SFF/RPi NAS" article every week, and it rarely involves RAID.

This is because a NAS setup with a single high-capacity drive and an online backup subscription (e.g. Backblaze) is more cost-effective and perfectly adequate for a lot of users, who have no interest in playing the sysadmin. In such a setup, you just need a drive that can withstand continuous operation, and SMR should work fine.

That's an interesting point I hadn't considered. To me, NAS implies RAID. You might be right that this is no longer true.

Frankly, I haven’t bought a single WD since. I no longer trust them as a brand, and trust is critical for this class of things.

> This was a huge controversy. But apparently selling SMR drives is profitable, so WD claims the problem is just that NAS software needs to be made compatible with SMR drives, and all is well. They are still selling SMR drives in their WD Red line.

Well, SMR lets you store more stuff on the same platter (more or less); fewer platters reduces costs, etc.

WD's claims about it being a software problem would be more reasonable if they were providing guidance about what the software needs to do to perform well with these drives, and probably that would involve having information about the drive available to the OS/filesystem rather than hidden.

buying HDDs these days currently feels a little like navigating the dark web.

I heard its about EU CYA directive, which requires IoT companies to deploy security patches in firmware within X months of those patches being released.

This would explain why they'd only want to support HDD models the Synology OS can flash firmware updates to.

(It's also convenient to get more margins.)

Nah. That wouldn’t require them to apply patches to someone else’s hardware than an end user installed after the fact. By analogy, Samsung isn't obligated to patch the firmware of an AirPods connected to it.

Western Digital misrepresented their Red drives being as suitable for NAS as they advertised, which ended up with them receiving a class action lawsuit against them.

Luckily all of the settings can be searched for and verified.

Seagate and Hitachi have seemed to treat me well over the years and I was giving WD a chance.

Next drives to buy will be from this list: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze-drive-stats-for-202...

I have a mix of SMR and CMR drives in my NAS and it works perfectly (on mdadm). I understand ZFS hates it but what is the problem on Synology?

Afaik it's not much of a problem until you need to rebuild the raid.

My rough understanding is an SMR drive has a small section that's CMR and where the data goes when you do a write. Then when the drive is idle it moves the data to SMR because SMR writes are slow. If you fill up the small CMR section it starts writing directly to SMR and you see a huge performance loss. Without adaptation for SMR drives a lot of systems recognized this slowdown as a failure and would hault a restore. Even with that corrected for now you are looking at 10x the rebuild time of a CMR drive which increases the odds of another drive failing during the rebuild.

A friend of mine who moved from Communist Russia to the US once explained to me the "tyranny of choice." He explained that, in the US, sometimes we get overwhelmed with many, many options.

To be quite blunt: After choosing my NAS, the act of choosing hard drives is actually harder and somewhat overwhelming. To be quite honest, knowing that I can choose from a narrower set of drives that are guaranteed to work correctly is going to really tip my scale in favor of Synology the next time I'm in the market for a NAS.

Locking non-approved drives does absolutely nothing for your case though.

They can sell "guaranteed to work" drives for people like you who don't want to go through all the picking process, while letting other people the choice to put any drive they want.

This is an argument in favor of all anti-competitive walled garden moves. But we've seen time and again the degrading service and price gouging that ultimately comes. People have a right to use the things they own as they please. Companies don't have a right to protect their image that supersedes this basic human right of independence.

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