Finland is painting deer antlers with reflective paint (2014) | Hacker News Reader

Finland is painting deer antlers with reflective paint (2014)

smithsonianmag.com

101 pointsandrewfromx120 comments

Just a random WI deer story. I have a few but here’s one.

I was driving on a two-lane highway and saw a deer up ahead on the side of the road so I started slowing down. The deer saw me, panicked and ran into the brush/woods, then changed direction and ran out and back toward the highway. I kept slowing. It changed direction and ran back toward the woods, changed direction again and ran back toward the highway. By now I was at a full stop and parallel to the deer. It ran head first into the side of my truck, fell down, got up and sort of stumbled back into the woods…

Was there a game fence preventing it from entering the woods maybe? Not sure how you do in WI but here in Sweden highways are always lined with game fences.

The sad thing is when an animal somehow gets over it, under it, however, and is then trapped on the highway side.

We don't really have game fences like that here. The closest thing is sound barriers along freeways through suburban and urban areas which occasionally trap animals, but even then there's usually enough room along the side of the road a spooked animal won't feel the need to run back towards the road after fleeing it.

There are two classes of highways in WI. Large, divided, 4+ lane highyways which always have game fences, and two lane 'county highways' which do not have fences. Parent is referring to the latter.

The game fences that do exist aren't really tall enough for deer, maybe 2m tall at best so deer are constantly jumping them. I've always wondered why they aren't taller - I suspect they are more for escaped cows and horses than for deer.

My guess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_wasting_disease

And based on the USGS map, it is very common in WI.

Eh, deer are just very stupid and indecisive when there are headlights. That’s why “shining” while hunting is illegal. There’s a chance that it had CWD but given my experience with them in Michigan, it’s just as likely to have been a dumb one.

Reindeer under headlights: Oh, I think it’s my time.

During the rut, I've seen muleys here in Montana act absolutely bonkers. I once saw a young but large buck darting in and out of traffic, playing chicken with oncoming 50 mph vehicles, to impress a group of does. He'd run across the road right in front of a car, then pronk around proudly while the does stared at him.

Sounds like human males in rut

If only it were seasonal for us human males.

> while the does stared at him

I hope they stared in horror and not arousal, otherwise these deer will never learn

This is common, deer are incredibly stupid. For those postulating the existence of a fence, no. They do this when there is no fence, both at night and also in broad daylight when there are no headlights to dazzle them either.

Title should be changed to reindeer, not deer. As those are domesticated by the Sami people. Then it makes more sense and should not be a major task, since they are regularly caught to be ear-marked for example. In general a good idea IMO.

For deer it would be trickier, but I imagine you could somehow do it by setting up feeding stations (pretty common with hunters) and spray them when they approach it. But it would be messy. Now my imagination is wandering, please stop me.

It's not possible at all to do this for white-tailed deer. The does and fawns don't grow antlers. My state, NJ, has a population of over 100,000 deer and average densities over 100 individuals per square mile (with some areas over double that).

You could snare the does and put high-vis reflective vests on them.

Do they need a hard hat too?

At 100 animals/sq-mile if they could snare them, they'd probably just shoot them at that point.

I fed about 110 deer during this last winter. I wanted to put something reflective on them and the senior game warden said no. There is very little I am permitted to do for them. I am not even permitted to protect them from predators. I can not put a sign next to the highway to watch for them, only the department of transportation can. I kept them off the highway all winter but mid spring they go their own way, mostly into the mountains but about 4 or 5 packs cross the highway. People think they are dumb but they just have incredibly poor depth perception and cars are much quieter these days. Noisy trucks and motorcycles will make them run back to me. EV's will need a sound system that makes them sound like a big-rig with jake-brakes and straight pipes. Let's make it happen.

Doesn't feeding them contribute to even more deer overpopulation and human habituation?

It does increase mating as I pull together many packs and teach them to get along with one another. I break up their sparring when it gets too aggressive to preserve their eyes. I even know what music will increase mating when the females are in heat but I can not explain why they like it. We lost a great deal of deer in the last few years and especially two years ago due to incredible snowfall. If anything I have restored some of the population. If it gets out of hand the game department will issue more tags or move some of them to other parts of the state that most of the deer died from starvation. I have also kept them off the highway for the most part. When I first started there are on average 20 dead deer just along my stretch of highway. Now there is 1 every other year.

They are still very much afraid of humans with myself being the exception. If someone gets near their feeding area other than me they will scatter. They all come to me and then go back to the mountains far away from all humans except the hunters. Some of the older bucks even know to get up to 10,000+ feet where there is no food but also mostly no hunters whereas the rest of them go to 9500 feet and get picked off first by bow hunters then firearm and also by predatory animals mostly mountain lions.

Something else that often comes up is the increased rate of getting CWD. This is true however they would all be exposed regardless as they all end up on shared paths eventually as the prions are highly resilient to break-down in nature. It was detected in a town near me and I expect a portion of one of the sub-genome to get it and one of the sub-genome to be immune. I am testing a theory on tightening cell junctions on what scientists mistakenly named the blood brain barrier by reducing inflammatory food intake and only time will tell if that reduces the impact at all.

Indeed. You might as well try to paint all the squirrels or pigeons.

Squirrels and pigeons don't regularly weigh 120 lbs, don't like to eat the grass on road shoulders at dawn and dusk, and as a result they don't total nearly as many cars.

But all of these are far less dangerous than a 500 lbs reindeer, 600 lbs elk, or 1400 lbs moose!

I'm not talking about reasons why we'd like them to be painted, just the feasibility of actually accomplishing it.

Sounds like you need wolves

There was an old lady who swallowed a ...

Except here the "old lady" had a lifetime of swallowing spiders. And came from 10,000 generations of women who swallowed spiders.

The old lady isn't the wolves. It's Finland. The wolves are the spider.

The coyotes are evolving up in size to fill that niche, it's becoming a problem.

wolfotes?

Wouldn’t that be a death sentence by making them super easy for predators to spot?

Luckily most predators don't use headlights.

No, but their antlers are now white and likely reflect more light in general than uncoated.

Reflective != white.

In fact, the color has nothing to do with it. The greens and reds and yellows on US roadway signs are reflective.

Are deer relying on hiding from predators or are they just relying on being able to escape predators? Deer are fairly large animals so they're kinda conspicuous already. I think they also don't get white coats during winter, so they stick out from the snow.

Bingo!

Antlers are weapons. Most predators will avoid the food with knives on its head. From a darwinian perspective, it is also probably better that the wolves pay attention to the well-armed male deer rather than the productive females that do not have antlers.

There were experiment painting reindeer antlers here in Finland. But it failed, the paint wont last. So nothing to see here really. Yet another internet ”thing” circling around

Did they try other alternatives, like reflective tape? Wrap it around like handlebar tape. Make it degradable or else the woods will fill up with junk.

Let's brainstorm some more, design a special hunter-seeker robot powered by AI that captures deer in the wild and performs this menial task.

Thank you, I'll show myself out.

You seem to have forgotten to take your comment out with you.

Bio-engineer the animals so their antlers and/or fur becomes reflective itself, and / or glow in the dark.

Bio-engineer vehicles that instinctively avoid deer.

If we're doing that level of bioengineering, the other direction would be to have the vehicles be able to eat any deer that cross its path for fuel. The circle of life doesn't work without predators at the top who eventually die themselves, returning their energy to the beginning of the cycle.

Put a tiny radio on all of them that broadcasts a “deer here” signal, and require cars to have a receiver to detect them. Ideally, make it a RFID.

I think what fancy cars do with infrared cameras is the actual solution. I don't know what's so prohibitively expensive about infrared cameras, I think it should be standard in "mid+tier" cars in the nordics and similars. However fencing has become very supermegamuch better which works well too, i guess because of more automated installation

ITER. Thermal cameras are used in missile guidance, so the US makes it hard to get good thermal cameras.

Not to mention they have to round up all the deer and paint each and every one of them first. Which is probably fine for farmed deer but not wild ones.

... which is in fact what the article YDNFR is about.

Reminds me of efforts to reduce roadkill in Australia.

"The virtual fence is the latest attempt to reduce wildlife-vehicle collisions. It uses a line of posts spaced along the roadside, each with a unit producing loud sounds and flashing lights aimed away from the road. Vehicle headlights activate the units, which are claimed to alert animals and reduce the risk of collision."

https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/wildlife/2024...

We have that in a forested section near me in New Jersey. I think it might be this: https://deerdeter.com/

"none of the efforts have helped reduce the annual 4,000 reindeer road deaths"

https://apnews.com/general-news-801aa30308b24b459251c60d569d...

Have they had better luck with wildlife crossings since 2016?

https://transportation.libguides.com/c.php?g=849313&p=607536...

Slowing speeds would work

I don't know reindeer but white tailed deer, possums, raccoons, rabbits, and nocturnal birds don't care how fast you're going. As someone else mentioned, you can be stopped and they'll run into your vehicle.

None of these animals instincts prepared them for the cacophony and lightshow of transportation. Everyone doing 15mph might solve 90% though, but I'll let that be your running platform.

But lower speeds do make crashes a lot less deadly. Probably also less probable, as people have more time to react

It doesn't follow that because the number didn't go down, that means the efforts did or didn't help. You need to think of the overall picture, are there other factors causing it to increase and would the number have been even higher without these efforts? The simple fact of the number not going down, doesn't really say much.

They are painting antlers. No information on how they are going to do this every year. (since antlers are only around for eight months a year and I imagine you have to paint them once they’re fully grown so four months in?) What an absolutely useless article, how do you actually bag and tag every reindeer in the entire country, it makes absolutely no sense

I guess they think the whole world knows about domestic animals in northern europe. This is not wild animals we are talking about, then it makes some sort of sense, right.

There are no wild reindeer in Finnish Lapland. Every reindeer has an owner. The Sami, who practice large-scale reindeer herding, routinely round up every reindeer in the country every year.

They also prevent predation by exterminating all predators that threaten their herds.

Even with the herds being owned/domesticated, you still have the issue of antlers being shed regularly. And do female reindeer grow them (white tail doe do not, that's what we have here in DC metro)?

In the New Forest national park in the UK (where there are about 5000 free roaming ponies) they've been fitting them with reflective/hi-viz collars for years. Makes them much easier to see at night in winter.

https://www.hlsnewforest.org.uk/2024/10/24/reflective-collar...

It is a good idea, but how ?

I believe deer loose their antlers every year. Painting thousands of deer every year seems impossible.

Or are the referring to deer that are being herded ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reindeer_herding

Yes, they are livestock. The amount of wild reindeer in finland is a rounding error compared to herded reindeer.

I don't understand how this was going to work? Was the plan to paint every year them all every year? I am not very familiar with reindeer but don't they shed the antlers every year like whitetail? So for most of the year they don't have antlers or they are growing them and they are covered with a soft velvet and only harden and scrap off the velvet layer on tress right before breading season. They fight and breed then shed thier antlers. You would have a very short window after they scrape thier velvet to paint and it would only be good for a 3-5 months at most. Granted at least for whitetail most of the accidents happen during the breeding season (like humans, male deer can be pretty reckless when it comes time to mate)

> Anne Ollila, chairwoman of the Reindeer Herders Association

These seem to be either domesticated or herded on certain territories by natives. So spray painting a herd may not be as hard as it sounds.

From https://reindeerherding.org/world-reindeer-herders

> The Association of World Reindeer Herders is a voluntary civil society organization for all the 24 different nomadic indigenous peoples who make a living from reindeer herding across 10 nation-states in the circumpolar north, formally founded during the 1st World Congress of Reindeer Herders in 1997.

Sure, give it a shot!

Reindeer are the only deer where the male and female both grow antlers, so it could help.

But… antlers fall off and regrow the next year, so you’d have to keep repainting…

Also, when the males rut, they tend to scrape their antlers on trees, so that’s probably not good for keeping paint on the antlers. Bonus! Finnish drivers will likely be able to see reflective trees and avoid them!

Another approach could be to have wildlife camera all around and when you detect a deer on cam, show special signals on the road.

The reindeer is not randomly showing up out of the forest. They are herded. The people herding them is putting up plenty of signs. But the reindeers are not on the actual road the whole time so people stop bothering about the signs. And some just drive really fast and realize too late that the warning signs in the cars manual that says "This function does not stop the physical laws from working." might be correct.

The raindeer is not affraid of cars, they just stand there doing nothing until they get hit. It might be a big herd with hundreds of animals on the road and another thousand in the surrounding forest so not much place to run either.

A few years ago someone made a fluorescent GM rabbit. I guess if they give that gene to a deer after a few generations it would spread through the population and solve the issue. If we consider it safe and ethical to release GM animals into the wild...

Won't that make them prime target for predators? Wolves also love to munch. And a lighthouse proclaiming dinner is here won't be helping their chances of survival either.

Do wolves have a light source or what are the antlers reflecting in this scenario?

Moonlight, streetlights

Reflections return to the source of the light. By definition.

Are there wolves on the moon, or perched on streetlights?

> Latest estimates indicate 32–38 wolf packs and 18–25 pairs of wolves in Finland as of March 2021. [0]

> Finnish Lapland has a reindeer population of about 200,000. That’s 20,000 more reindeer than people! [1]

[0] https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/news-in-brief/19376-fin...

[1] https://www.lapland.fi/visit/meet-reindeer-ailo/year-of-the-...

Sounds like a job for AI and a HUD. We have deer in my area. I need something. I drive slowly but k owing when they’re around would be helpful.

I was surprised how many dead deer I saw driving down the M11/A11 in Norfolk. I think I counted 10 dead muntjac.

Wouldn't this have to be done every year? Or did the petting zoo I visited lie to me?

This article is horrible. Theres barely any info and a single picture. This passes as journalism?

Is finland still doing this?

No, it was a test for a year and deemed a failure.

Deers also shed their antlers yearly...so who's maintaining this?

I feel like this would fuck with me if i was a deer, imagine someone gets you, sprays stuff onto our antlers and suddenly they glow when light hits them, thats some animal body horror

They care about these animals but they are still animals, to dumb to avoid the road and they probably don't mind having such horns and it could save their life

Won't that also make them trivial to hunt?

Illegal to hunt domestic animals.

(2014)

Like imagine being a reindeer looking at your friend's glowing antlers at night!

I can just imagine them going up to roads to admire each others' reflective antlers in the headlights.

s/is/tried

Looks like the Regal Ancestor Spirit from Elden Ring, lol.

We should genetically modify some males to glow in the dark, much like how we neuter mosquitoes by using a few modified males.

aka "Legal way to kill & steal a reindeer". That is why there are so many accidents.

They make tasty snacks.

Worth risking insurance premiums going up or potential physical harm as well ?

Grill guards are a common sight in rural areas. I have known a few people of questionable moral character who have no issue aiming for deer/elk on the road and processing the meat themselves. https://a.co/d/d86EVHD

That grill would work unless the deer gives a tiny hop - as they tend to do - and goes right into your windshield

Reindeer don't hop very well, though.

I didn't know that about them. But deer do hop to windshield height, and moose may have to crouch a little to get there

You better have a high car then, elks are big. You just end up pushing the legs away and the heavy part goes into your lap through the windshield.

Are you saying that people intentionally strike reindeer with their automobiles?

That sounds far-fetched to me, but I could also see it as a form of dangerous poaching.

People do it out of spite. We have similar problems with the white population hating the Sami similar to what USA has had with Indians. There were cases just outside of Umeå close to the winter rally where some raindeers were killed. [0]

The drivers feel that the Sami puts the reindeer on the road to be in the way and cash in on the money they get for the killed raindeers. (Secret tip: It's not enough to be worth it to watch your domestic animals die in your hands or be forced to finnish them off yourself because the owner are forced to take care of the dead animals.)

[0] https://swedenherald.com/article/three-reindeer-killed-linke...

> We have similar problems with the white population hating the Sami

What does "white" mean to you?

It seems pretty clear that the Sami are white:

https://www.ecowatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/12813432...

https://www.ecowatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/39091306...

https://atmos.earth/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/sami-people-E...

https://atmos.earth/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/sami-people-0...

The indigenous Sami does have white skin, but they have a different ancestry compared to "regular"/other Scandinavians. They were for a long time legally forbidden from expressing their culture and religion, and are still harassed by individuals and groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_S%C3%A1mi

No. Swedish Sami are almost all whitehaired Scandinavians. Famously depicted longnoses like Peter Stormare in the movies.

In 1800 Sweden and Norway made it impossible to follow herds around in Nomadic Style so they all escaped to Finland and Russia.

The "Sami" you see today are Swedes who adopted the lifestyle when certain restriction were lifted and Reindeer-herding become monopoly of Sami. Declaring Samines was just a formality.

All nordic "Sami" oppose DNA-testing, as they clearly are very different from real Sami living in Russia.

Is this Poe's Law in action? I can seriously not tell if this is satire.

There are so many weird theories like these.

No, Sweden and Norway did not make it impossible to follow herds around. They had so little state presence up north, they hardly could even if they had wanted to! Once state power started to reach Northern Sapmi for real, one of the first things Sweden and Denmark/Norway managed to agreed on (despite regular wars!) was rights for reindeer herders to cross borders as they used to. This wasn't to be nice, but because reindeer herders were very profitable tax subjects with a lot of highly mobile capital (so mobile it could move on its own!), and neither Sweden or Norway wanted to scare them off to the other side.

What did happen is that Denmark-Norway and Sweden didn't want to involve Russia-Finland in this early brotherly deal (especially, Norway didn't want to let Russians fish in Norwegian fjords), and so Russia closed its borders, including to the nomads. A few got stuck on the Russian side, but most stayed in Sweden and Norway. This forced the reindeer herders to push further south (with government blessing, as mentioned they were highly profitable subjects) and into the lands of non-herding Sami causing a lot of problems, but that's another story. This is why Norway and Sweden have far more Sami than Russia and the former Russian duchy, Finland. Reindeer herders were also the main preservers of the Sami language, due in no small part to their wealth and pride in their distinctness - how exactly does the Sami language factor into your theory that today's Sami are just cosplaying Swedes?

(Also, if Sami are so opposed to DNA testing, why do I have half of Karasjok in my match list at ftdna?)

> how exactly does the Sami language factor into your theory that today's Sami are just cosplaying Swedes?

It should be noted that that's not a particularly meaningful observation. They speak a Turkic language in Turkey while obviously not being Turks, a legacy of conquest.

And they speak Modern Hebrew in Israel, which is a historical case of language cosplay! Nobody spoke Hebrew before, but they thought it would be cool to do it.

> The indigenous Sami does have white skin, but they have a different ancestry compared to "regular"/other Scandinavians.

So do the British. So what?

> The indigenous Sami does have white skin

Note that skin color isn't really relevant. An albino black isn't going to pass for white. The Sami, being white, would have no such trouble.

Trying to be funny? Use your imagination.

Seriously, do you have something in mind when you say "white"?

Erh What? You are obliged to kill an injured animal. So you just break a leg and remove all owner's markings, if nobody saw the accident.

Fur is €300 and canned meat is €10 / 100 grams. So 50 kilo reindeer is eventually worth over €5000.

There is some misunderstanding about Reindeer's legal status and civil rights, especially in Finland. Learn from Grok:

Yes, anybody can own a reindeer in Finland, but there are important regulations to follow. Reindeer herding is a traditional livelihood, particularly for the Sámi people, and is heavily regulated, especially in the northern Reindeer Husbandry Area (covering about 36% of Finland). Here’s a breakdown: Private Ownership: You can own a reindeer as a private individual, similar to owning other livestock. There are no explicit laws prohibiting non-Sámi or non-residents from owning reindeer, but practical and legal considerations apply.

Reindeer Husbandry Area: In this designated region (mostly Lapland), reindeer herding is managed by the Reindeer Herders’ Association. If you want to keep reindeer here, you must coordinate with local herding cooperatives, as grazing lands are shared. Unauthorized herding can disrupt communal practices.

Outside the Reindeer Husbandry Area: South of this area, you can keep reindeer on private land (e.g., as pets or for tourism), but you need permission from the local agricultural authority, as reindeer are considered livestock under Finnish law.

Practical Challenges: Reindeer require specific care (e.g., grazing land, protection from predators). Without experience or infrastructure, it’s challenging to keep them. Most owners are part of herding cooperatives due to the animals’ semi-wild nature and migratory needs.

Legal Requirements: You must register reindeer with authorities, mark their ears for identification, and comply with animal welfare laws. The Finnish Food Authority oversees livestock regulations.

Cultural Sensitivity: Reindeer herding is central to Sámi culture. Non-Sámi owning reindeer, especially for commercial purposes, can be sensitive if it competes with traditional herding.

If you’re considering owning a reindeer, you’d need to: Check if you’re in the Reindeer Husbandry Area and contact the local cooperative.

Secure land and permits.

Ensure you can meet the animal’s needs.

For specific guidance, contact the Reindeer Herders’ Association (Paliskuntain yhdistys) or local agricultural authorities. If you want me to search for real-time information or analyze related content (e.g., from X or the web), let me know!

>€10 / 100 grams

Really? That's roughly equivalent to $50/pound! I understand that may change from region to region, but that seems ten times too expensive.

A 200g can of reindeer meat costs 15 €. In Rovaniemi. Add transport and tariffs.

I accidentally bought frozen reindeer meat while living in Norway about 15 years ago, though I think I only paid about 300kr / 30€ for a 1-2kg pack. Tasted quite good in a lasagne!

Canned meats outside most generic beef and pork products in style of luncheon meat are surprisingly expensive. Probably just not enough scale, even if they store well.

Deer are the 2nd most lethal mammal in North America, after Homo sapiens. Striking one with a car is a very well-known way to die.

That is NOT why there are so many accidents.

What's your next theory, people hunting children playing ball is why so many children get struck near playgrounds?

Your are obviously reading impaired, but maybe formal logic might help:

(Finland != America) & (Reindeer != Deer) & (Reindeer == Domesticated_Pig_with_Horns)

It's cool, BUT if this was done in America, all of those deer would be dead by daylight thanks to hunters. "Hi Hunters! Look! I'm here! See my glowing rack?! Yes, Over here! Shoot me! Shooooot Meeeeeeee!"

Not necessarily. Many places require deer tags to be purchased. If you shoot a deer, you have to tag it. Many hunters also won’t kill just any deer. It’s often better to let the deer live for another season to let it mature.

You are wildly incorrect.

The largest deer population in the 50 US states is in Pennsylvania, home of the Appalachian forests. If I wanted to hunt deer, I could easily live off venison. Shooting them is only tricky during legal hunting season, when they quickly become very wary.

There's 12-20 that live within a mile of me. My dogs and I regularly surprise them sleeping, and I live within 10 minutes of the heart of a large US city.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com