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Comment by throwaway290 | Hacker News Reader

"Finance a revolution"... as if Russian or Ukrainian people are bots who can't desire freedom and non corrupt governments.

Yes many Russians send kids to study in China now, I know some of those Russians.

No most Russians don't speak Chinese but yes they get news from official media which is China aligned. Remember using VPN to work around censorship or telling people about using VPN is now illegal in Russia.

And Russia does not refuse China like UK does not refuse US... China does not need to threaten to blow anything up. Brics currency for example would be a disaster for Russia and good for China but Putin will dance to Xi's pipe because he has no other friends left.

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>as if Russian or Ukrainian people are bots who can't desire freedom and non corrupt governments.

Even with all the propaganda and force being used (and there is a lot of force, search for videos of how Ukrainians are being conscripted), I am certain that the vast majority of Ukrainians would vote against Zelensky and would be highly motivated to end the war. Whether such decisions should be left to the people is another question, but it's not even true to say that Ukrainian government represents the people anymore, which is why they refuse to hold elections.

>No most Russians don't speak Chinese but yes they get news from official media which is China aligned

China owns Chinese media. Russia owns Russian media. US allies don't own their media. USAID was funding 90% of Ukrainian media [0]. Don't you think this can be a problem in situations where interests of the two countries don't align? Was this war good for the Ukraine?

[0] https://x.com/wikileaks/status/1887501752213409919

> but it's not even true to say that Ukrainian government represents the people anymore, which is why they refuse to hold elections.

As Ukrainian I strongly disagree. Ukrainian government do plan to have elections as soon as any ceasefire is negotiated. Also the idea to even talk about election is _very_ unpopular, to the point of any politician who tries to start political discussions is being ostracised heavily by people of all political spectrum. It is understood that any disagreement (and elections is based on discussing all the disagreements), will weaken the army, so you cannot have that during the war.

And we do have this discussion very often, since as soon as US make another promise to stop the war in the next 24 hour (as it did in November, December, January, etc...), some politicians decide that it is finally a time to start off their election campaign and get hated on by really everyone immediately.

I didn't vote for Zelensky and will not vote in the future, but he is indeed _VERY_ popular. The whole discussion about how he is a dictator and afraid of the election really pisses people off.

Fair enough, elections could really cause political instability. Would you be in favor of a referendum, simply asking Ukrainian people if they want to continue fighting or accept peace under whatever conditions are offered by Russia and the US?

Russia made their conditions very clear multiple times from the start of the war and never changed them a bit. People overwhelmingly continue to answer them every single day.

Russia said it wanted the UN involved so it could veto all the things via the security council. Russia lies and brraks contracts , you can not make deals with a rabid wulf.

What's the alternative, fight until the last Ukrainian? And we can't even have a referendum there, to make sure this is what Ukrainian people really want?

Once you start torturing somebody to make them do what you want, it is important to pause sometimes and ask if that's what they really want to continue hurting, or are they finally going to do/say what you want now. Every psycho knows that. You have goals, you are a busy man. after all you hate torture, you just have to do it to achieve your goals because some people don't want to bend to you voluntarily for some reason...

Of course Ukrainian people don't want it. Who would ever want it?

But you're asking the wrong people. Ukrainians don't have a choice. Someone who HAS a choice is one guy who sent troops to start it and since then continuously costs lives on both sides (and now also North Korean and Chinese lives too). He can stop at any time and he's not the one defending his home. So if you are so concerned about Ukrainians your alternative is to make that motherfucker go away forever. Hold a referendum, assassinate him, idk. You have my blessing.

>Ukrainians don't have a choice.

Why not? What in the life of an average Ukrainian will change if he is ruled by a bureaucrat from Moscow instead of a bureaucrat from Washington? Let's say that he prefers a bureaucrat from Washington. Does he prefer him so much that he's willing to die for this? In an ideal world Ukrainian people would have sovereignty, but this is not the world we live in. By refusing to accept this, we're pushing them to commit national suicide.

> What in the life of an average Ukrainian will change if he is ruled by a bureaucrat from Moscow instead of a bureaucrat from Washington

"ruled by" shows you are a russian troll. A democratic government serves the citizens. You're "ruled by" if you're in a country like russia. Ukrainians had their chosen government.

> By refusing to accept this

By posing like somebody from the west you are trying to get them to internalize as if they have no choice, but they do have a choice as per my other comment. Putler has a choice every day whether to continue or not, and west has a choice whether to stop him. It's Ukrainians who don't have a choice but to stop him.

I don't think I need to engage further, it's pretty obvious and you are not saying anything I haven't heard before.

same referendum in Russia ?

As a Russian I think you should have a referendum in Russia first. Their last real election was longer ago

> I am certain that the vast majority of Ukrainians would vote against Zelensky and would be highly motivated to end the war.

The Verkovna Rada, many of which very much don't agree with Zelensky, has again and again very clearly confirmed his mandate.

Given the Ukrainian constitution that is the best one can aim for in a war.

Also, while polls say Ukrainians want peace, the part that is not reported says the majority of Ukrainians does not want to give up land for peace.

Meanwhile a lot of westerners keep posting the things you just did.

I think it would be great if people stopped to think instead of propagating what is just Russian talking points.

>Also, while polls say Ukrainians want peace, the part that is not reported says the majority of Ukrainians does not want to give up land for peace.

I find this hard to believe. Do you think it would be fair to confirm it via a referendum? That way all the political instability of elections could be avoided, but we could still make sure that it's what Ukrainians really want.

> I find this hard to believe. Do you think it would be fair to confirm it via a referendum?

Yes, and like in crimea put russian troops around and deny access to international observers

Because you personally find it hard to believe.

Get out.

> which is why they refuse to hold elections

They don't hold elections because it's a war outside.

> China owns Chinese media. Russia owns Russian media.

And china owns russia.

> USAID was funding 90% of Ukrainian media [0].

Good stuff, it still should.

> Don't you think this can be a problem in situations where interests of the two countries don't align?

Why? Funding is money. Funding of free press is supporting a democracy. For comparison Russia instead of funding press funded hired guns and separatists.

One of those "two countries" is a corrupt to the core gas stop. Any country whose interests align with it is going the same way. Ukraine is better than that.

> Was this war good for the Ukraine?

What war? Surely you should say "special military operation" comrade?

Why "was"? The war is ongoing. Russia can't win in.

Wars are bad and that's why people starting wars should eat shit.

I would love to know in what way have you determined that the Ukraine is less corrupt than Russia.

>Funding of free press is supporting a democracy

It's not really "free" if they depend on foreign donations. Do you believe that those donations come with no strings attached? If the Ukrainian "free press" disagreed with the party line, would they still receive money? Or would they be banned, like the opposition parties that opposed Zelensky?

>Wars are bad and that's why people starting wars should eat shit.

In the real world, this is not how things work. The loser always pays the price. The longer the war goes on, the more Russia will ask for in reparations. If the war continues for a few more years, and the Ukraine loses more land and people, will this be better for them? Can they at least have a referendum, to make sure this is what Ukrainians really want?

> the Ukrainian "free press" disagreed with the party line, would they still receive money?

Absolutely. And they would receive Russian money too. But some things are more important than money

> The loser always pays the price

Exactly. That's why who started the war must be ensured to be the loser. It was the case with Hitler (except sadly his Russian friends got off easily), it is the case with Putler. He must pay.

> If the war continues for a few more years, and the Ukraine loses more land and people, will this be better for them

Absolutely not. So Russia has to lose this war fast, for the sake of free world and Ukrainians whom you worry about so much. And we all know how to do it.

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