Comment by pndy | Hacker News Reader

Comment by pndy | Hacker News Reader

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> Thinking about it I realized that circa 2000, Poland's early desktop and home computers were probably still in use

Around 2000 we were already using normal x86 machines in the offices and homes. There was a company named Optimus which had multiple branches that back then provided: computers (assembling and selling these), software - they've become an official distributor for e.g. Activision, Ubisoft, Id Software, Disney etc., translations for foreign software, and they also become one of two offical Nintendo distributors in Poland. Optimus had chances to become a really good player here but due to financial management "problems" they have failed - to put this short. In 2009 Optimus merged with what nowadays is known as CD Projekt. Optimus' other child - a web portal known originally Optimus Net has become onet.pl and it survived till today but become a part of Ringier Axel Springer Poland.

There were specific places which used our "native" machines for years. For example last Odra computer was shut down on April 30th in 2010 after 34 years of continuos work at Polish Railways computer centre.

Beside the technology museum you mentioned there is (or was - not sure what happen) an Apple museum in Warszawa - folks hoarded over 1700 items under their care.

https://applemuzeumpolska.webflow.io/en/home

https://nmt.waw.pl/en/

Country itself changed in last 20 years and if you haven't seen it again in that time, you should return

> Around 2000 we were already using normal x86 machines in the offices and homes.

Yes, I assumed so but figured if Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s similar to the Galaksija in Yugoslavia or the rare Pecom 64 (of which I have one in my collection!), that they might still be in original owners hands in 2000 instead of museums.

> Country itself changed in last 20 years and if you haven't seen it again in that time, you should return

It was lovely when I visited but there were still some signs of the old soviet era lingering. I'm sure with the economic growth since then it's remarkably different today. I hope to see it someday!

> still be in original owners hands in 2000 instead of museums.

Kinda, yes. Almost entirely for sentimental reasons though. The longest held ones would still likely be Amigas. Virtually only PCs were used in offices in 2000. Industrial cases would still hold on to some old machines simply because nobody upgrades those. (But that's kind of like subways today still working from floppies)

And then there's the in between of dos terminals for accounting, inventory, etc. Those were everywhere and survived for so much longer than in other countries as far as I can tell.

> if Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s

Personal possession of Home computers, printers and copiers was illegal in Poland under Iron Curtain. After all it could be, and often was [1], used to undermine the regime!

Anecdote from book "High-tech behind the Iron Curtain. Electronics, computers and control systems in the Polish People's Republic" ("High-tech za żelazną kurtyną. Elektronika, komputery i systemy sterowania w PRL" 978-83-8098-094-5)

>In 1984, "Informatyka" magazine, involved in the dissemination of these machines, reported on the adventures of Mr. Przemysław, who received in April [...] a package from his brother in Toronto, containing the VIC-20 microcomputer, power supply, cassette recorder, a set of cassettes for television games and English language manual and connecting cables. The Customs Office in Gdynia refused to issue an import license, stating that it could issue [...] only if the computer was necessary for the citizen's professional or scientific work

Computers became legal somewhere around 1985 when Atari landed in special regime Pewex enterprise shops - shops only accepting hard western currency, currency illegal to own privately in the country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewex

Elwro computers were sold to ministry of education or send to USSR sold for "transfer ruble", a fake currency with ridiculous fake official dollar exchange rate making every sale a huge loss for the factory. There were amateur DIY plans published in magazines, COBRA in AUDIO VIDEO and CA80 in Radioelektronik. Nobody was manufacturing those computers and afaik plans were being published during design and debugging making recreation a nightmare. >99% of 80s computers in Polish homes came smuggled from the west and most went straight to garbage in late nineties. Poland freed from russian occupation was getting wealthy really fast and nobody had time for obsoleted hardware.

[1] https://hackaday.com/2016/07/05/retrotechtacular-how-solidar...

I tried to see if that book is still available to get, doesn't seem like so, at least in paper :< It's certainly one I'd love to have on desk.

I hate how with most history books published here, after a year or two it's impossible to get them due to low print :(

There are pdfs floating around. Another good read might be "Playing and copying: social practices of home computer users in Poland during the 1980s" by Patryk Wasiak https://www.academia.edu/13353149/Playing_and_copying_social...

Cant find a way to simply download it :(

It appears someone uploaded a draft version (at least that's what file says on the inside) on atarionline forum

Poland had homegrown computers in the mid-80s. One of the major Polish computer magazines of the time, Bajtek, was published from 85 [1]

Casually looking in the magazines published in 1985, during the time of the iron curtain, reveals a lot of fun stuff like games and poke codes, but also more serious stuff. Nothing here suggest that home computers where illegal to have at home.

In fact [2] suggest that home computer use in Poland was wide spread.

[1] https://archive.org/details/bajtekmagazine [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290109777_Playing_a...

In 1985 CoCom, organization controlling export of military tech and assessing possibility of using specific civilian technologies for military purposes, relaxed rules allowing 8-bit computers to go thru.

https://forums.atariage.com/topic/316764-computer-export-to-...

Still all computers with a power exceeding 8 bits, software for computer-aided design and manufacturing (CAD/CAM), software related to sound and image processing and artificial intelligence, as well as software used for testing computer technology were still strictly prohibited.

There were personal computers in Poland before 1985, all smuggled and illegal. Just like owning Dollars, Deutsche Marks and Pounds was illegal yet there was whole chain of official Pewex shops accepting exclusively those currencies. Poland was weird like that.

Klaudiusz Dybowski was chief of Commodore corner in Bajtek. Interview:

"Wywiad z Klaudiuszem Dybowskim" by (Atari Online PL) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IC7zYjrSxo

50:40 timestamp is where he talks how he got his own Commodore 64 into Poland in late 1984 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IC7zYjrSxo&t=3043

>"natomiast Musiałem zostawić sprzęt w urzedzie celnym, bo zglosilem ze przywiozlem komputer, "musi pan to zostawic, teraz musi pan napisac podanie o zezwolenie na posiadanie komputera i wwiezienie go do Polski", i mam to podanie, napisalem je, mam do tego [....] od Zarządu Ruchu Lotniczego i Lotnisk Komunikacyjnych dostalem takie poparcie "bardzo prosimy zeby mozna to bylo wwiesc, komputer bedzie sluzyl do obliczen prodedur itd" i to zanioslem, poczekalem 2 tygodnie i komputer odebralem

>"However, I had to leave the equipment at the customs office, because I reported entering with a computer, "you must leave it with us, now you have to write an application for license to import and own a computer", and I still have this application, I wrote it .... from Zarząd Ruchu Lotniczego i Lotnisk Komunikacyjnych (name of company managing Polish airports at the time, his employer) I received such support "requesting to grant permission, computer will be used for the calculations of airport procedures etc." and I took it, I waited 2 weeks and I received the computer

So as you see even Bajtek chief had to have a license to own mere C64.

> So as you see even Bajtek chief had to have a license to own mere C64.

This was not the experience of Poles in general in 1985 according to [1][2].

> "There is a wide range on offer at the Warsaw bazaar. There is everything from microcomputers and peripherals through software to services like repairs and hardware modifications. There is no problem with the availability of literature. [...] Among computers for sale the most popular are ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64. [...] Certainly, software is also available.

The above quote is taken from the writing of Patryk Wasiak from 2014, with the title "Playing and copying: social practices of home computer users in Poland during the 1980s" [3].

In [3] there is also mentions of the frequent import of electronics by Poles visiting West Berlin. I find no one mentioning that the equipment bought on the Bazaars should be registered.

Finally, both Poland, and the Soviet Union, in the 80s allowed limited private enterprises in the realm of electronics. All sorts of clones of 8-bit computers, like the ZX Spectrum were available, including a rich ecosystem of peripherals. However, they were generations behind their western counterparts. Surely they were late in the game, but they did not lack creativity.

[1] Roman Poznański, “Informatyka na Perskim,” (Informatics on the Persian Bazaar) Bajtek (October 1985): 24-25.

[2] Link to scan of Bajtek October 1985 https://archive.org/details/bajtek_85_02/page/n23/mode/2up?v...

[3] (PDF) https://atarionline.pl/forum/?PostBackAction=Download&Attach...

We seem to be talking past each other. This was THE experience of everyone in Poland who didnt straight up smuggle computers _pre_ 1985. Your examples are from 1985, yes in 1985 things finally changed when COCOM modified its stance towards 8-bit machines and Lucjan Daniel Wencel (of LDW/P.Z. Karen/California Dreams fame) negotiated a deal between Atari and Pewex.

>I find no one mentioning that the equipment bought on the Bazaars should be registered.

Neither anyone mentioned paying taxes or import duty :) because it was all _smuggled_, either hidden from customs or smoothed over with bribes. Another example is Bajtek Atari clan chief editor Wojciech Zientara personally smuggled 600XL from West Germany during one of his commercial cruises, perk of being a sailor.

Computer fairs were extremely illegal from every angle possible. Smuggled goods, illegal goods (printers), no taxes, no registered businesses, no license for commerce, renting the place under the umbrella of a Tourist Club „Pod Kamykiem” haha, illegal hard currency exchange https://spidersweb.pl/plus/2021/04/gielda-komputerowa-prl-la...

>„Bajtka” napisał o ultimatum. Redakcja odbierze giełdzie patronat, jeśli w ciągu dwóch miesięcy nie zostaną wprowadzone pewne zmiany. Chodziło m.in. o ukrócenie handlu walutami

[3] contains a lot of inaccuracies:

>COCOM ... obtaining an export license was a mere formality

not really, according to my examples 'only if the computer was necessary for the citizen's professional or scientific work'

>Moreover, 8-bit home computers were excluded from the list

only in 1985

> Pewex in cooperation with state-owned company Karen

Karen was a private company, or more accurately Polish subsidiary of American one http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/P.Z._Karen

> Atari was sold in Pewex at the same price as the Commodore C-64 in computer bazaars but became more popular despite a smaller choice of software.

Pewex Atari required hard currency while computer fairs accepted plain zlotys. Bajtek/Top Secret/Secret Service own surveys showed ~2x more C64 than Atari in reader hands.

Holy &#$^!!!

And I thought owning a 4K microcomputer as a suburban California teenager in 1981 was lonely and hard! No one in my family's extended network had a computer at home, nor could they even imagine what you'd do with such a thing at home (other than maybe play games which an Atari console could do better and much cheaper).

> nobody had time for obsoleted hardware.

Sadly, the same was true in the U.S. although it was great for me. In the late 90s I built out my complete collection of every model of 8-bit micro commonly sold in the U.S. in the 80s and early 90s. All the Ataris, all the Apples (except that Apple 1 kit of course), all the Commodores, all the Radio Shacks, all the Amigas, all the Sinclairs, plus dozens more few remember as well as quite a few from overseas. And I never paid more than $25 for any of them (and many were just given to me for free).

My teenage daughter recently looked up a bunch of them on eBay and apparently the collection is probably worth north of $100,000. Of course, I told her it's only worth that if I was interested in selling them - and I'm not. :-)

> if Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s

Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s. Take a look at the computer magazine Bajtek [1] published from 1985, which focused on games and programming.

[1] https://archive.org/details/bajtekmagazine

> due to financial management "problems"

those problems were not management, founder of Optimus- Roman Kluska is one of the most briliant minds in Poland, even today. Problems were caused by the state itself, first directing Optimus to book VAT in certain way, and then the same state accusing Optimus of defrauding VAT. Roman Kluska was imprisoned and had to pay 8mln PLN to be bailed, later when he was deemed not guilty that money was never returned to him, not to mention all damage they caused to himself and his business. These are leftovers of communism aparatus, nobody liable for anything.

Thus "problems"; I didn't want to dive into whole story because this tree is already off-topic for a different period. Tho, thanks for a few additional words.

I actually heard the administration was specifically bribed to oust Kluska by the HP who were entering the market at that time.

It’s a rumor but considering how corrupt was everything back then, I find it completely plausible since otherwise it would be against Polish raison d’etat to kill a strong, homegrown computer manufacturer.

I knew a person who worked in an important role in Optimus in the early days... I have a very different image of Roman Kluska.

Good for you, friend, he surely is no saint- none of us is. But it is fact that all information served in Polish media about him were lies- proven in court when he was released from all charges. I can't remember media lounching the campaign to tell the truth, at the same magnitude they were spreading lies. And it is also true that he was the one to build Optimus from scratch, he started in his garrage- very much the story of Polish startup to learn from. Personally I know very few people who really liked their boss, and sadly this was especially true among Polish people in the '90s. I personally know business owners of the time who were stolen from by their management and employees. Finally, Roman Kluska being devote Catholic makes him many enemies simply because of that fact.

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