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Comment by alt227 | Hacker News Reader

20 years ago we had reality TV, video games, and rock music which were the perveyor of body issues and FOMO etc. The issue is not technology, but popular culture. Pre the end of the 20th century most people considered knowledge and skill to be the peak of human progression. Now it is money and image. As money and image can easily be given/bestowed whilst knowledge and skill cannot, I believe the general population has become much easier to manipulate by using these traits.

There are very few young people today who dont value money and image as something to aspire to. IMO this is a really dangerous thing of which there is no way back.

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Vanity and greed are called deadly sins for a reason. It is clear these are afflictions humans have always had to deal with. Unfortunately, culture isn't built from the top down and takes generations to change. I am sure we will see a swing back toward traditional values as people learn the hard way that not all things old should be thrown out.

I do agree, and we have seen this in the past with things like the punk movement, which was a purely creative output from the working class in response to poor social conditions. Hopefully there is a similar movement against similar modern technological conditions at some point.

There are a couple of differences here though. For example everybody has the same tiktok. The upper classes and lower classes are for the first time being subjected to the same issues simultaneously.

Also the modern medium of tiktok has proven so addictive that people are not showing any signs of rising up against it, and so it is taking legislation to protect people from themselves.

These are all new factors which will change the swing somewhat, Im with you in hoping that it all works out.

The upper classes have a lot more resorces and their children will be affected at a lower rate.

The endless series of 10 second video clips, selection optimized by algorithm to keep your attention just enough to continue on and on and on...

That's not at all the same as TV, video games, or rock music.

I believe it is. We saw the same thing with the rise of cable and reality TV and teenagers watching endless reruns of the Kardashians and the Osbournes as it was the first time you could watch shows back to back for days on end.

With Video Games we had the introduction of the MMO and news stories of people forgetting to feed their kids, and even dying in their homes from not looking after themselves properly.

People are the problem, not the tech. As long as people are willing to be lazy and allow their brains to be subjected to a constant stream of repetetive digital content for entertainement, then we will have these issues.

I think the tech has raised stimulation levels exponentially, which feeds people's desire to consume in ways that was impossible in the past. But, I also think your examples are quite valid, and what we're seeing here now is probably only marginally worse than Neil Postman days back in the '80s and '70s when TV was the big boogeyman. Meaning that our society has already been screwed for half a century, and we should probably try to look at the problem through this lens rather than just trying to turn back the clock by a mere decade or two.

Maybe things were already bad when radio achieved mass adoption and people couldn't get enough of it? Maybe in some ways today's unlimited aural stimulation, of having access to music and podcasts at any moment, is also unnatural and undesirable for mental health?

Yes I like the idea that we need to go back about 50 years to really see the root of this. IMO it is visual media in general which is causing these issues (TV/Games/Social Media) which started probably in the 70s.

The difference is so obvious. I think the people who deny it either haven't seen the tech's impact on people or they are coping as an addict themself. It's totally the same as a good book you guys!!

My girlfriend and some friends are captivated by doomscrolling tiktok/insta. They'll do it and let hours pass if left undisturbed.

They can't watch TV or play games for hours because that gets boring and samey.

On the other hand, my girlfriend will aspire to play a game she bought or watch a show she wants to watch, but then get immediately sabotaged by instagram shorts because it's so much more stimulating.

> It's totally the same as a good book you guys

Its nothing like a book, however it is very similar to addiction on MMO games like World of warcraft and Roblox.

> They can't watch TV or play games for hours because that gets boring and samey.

I would argue that its not because its boring, its because it doesnt give as frequent rewards for engagement and so becomes less attractive for the user.

> get immediately sabotaged by instagram shorts because it's so much more stimulating

Its not stimulation, its lazyness. I guarantee that anybody would get more stimulation from investment in a decent story in a book, movie, or game, but it takes more effort to get there. Its much easier to get that tiny hit of dopamine from a 10 second video than it is to invest 2 hours into a story to get a decent payoff. Its this lazyness of wanting the easy hit instead of putting the time in that is making people put down that book and jump on Instagram.

Sure, the culture is the content and human drive behind it, but the technology has made it so that we cannot avoid it and cannot easily practice good hygiene when it comes to social engagement. Or another metaphor, food, imagine if you had candy/sugar laying around everywhere and that was placed in front of whole foods everywhere you looked, such that you technically could choose a better option, but you were always fighting your human instincts to prioritize fast/cheap energy. As an adult, you know that you need to override these base instincts, and have evidence from your childhood where you encountered the structure of choosing healthy options even when you probably wanted something more sugary/fatty. The argument is that kids are not getting the opportunity to develop this healthy digital content diet because their parents either do not have the technical ability nor the actual functional ability to do anything about it.

There's a reason why most teenagers are on tiktok, but believe that they would be better off if it never existed. [1] https://fortune.com/well/article/nearly-half-of-gen-zers-wis...

I see your point, but I dont agree with your metaphors at all.

Governments around thwe world have had to tax sugary products to save people from themselves. You make it sound like there isnt currently an obesity epidemic because adults know enough to not eat too much sugary foods. In reality the vast majority eat way too much even though they know its not good for them, just like social media use. Its the same as alcohol and drug abuse etc. Humans are terrible at restricting themselves when it comes to stuff that makes them feel good. Tiktok scrolling is just an extension of that, not the cause.

I actually think I communicated my point incorrectly, I also agree with you, I meant more that at least if you had some guidance as a child and your environment wasn't so antagonistic, you might have a fighting chance, not even that you will definitely succeed. We see it now with food deserts, etc. It's a challenging environment to navigate when you have all of this "freedom". :p

>Pre the end of the 20th century most people considered knowledge and skill to be the peak of human progression. Now it is money and image. As money and image can easily be given/bestowed whilst knowledge and skill cannot, I believe the general population has become much easier to manipulate by using these traits.

It was like that in the 80s as well. Probably the 90s, depending on your inner circle. Money and prestige (image) has always been prominent in the US. We probably inherited it from the UK before we existed.

Knowledge and skill were socially important in the US once Sputnik was launched and we viewed science and engineering as the battlefield against the Soviet Union.

> The issue is not technology, but popular culture.

It's both. When I was growing up as a kid (and I'm now going back over 40 years instead of 20) you didn't take your cable TV with you in your pocket. (And not even your video games unless you consider Electronic Football a video game.)

(Okay, so the Walkman came along and I could take my music with me. Big sin!)

Entertainment, distractions in general had a specific time and place. There was a large part of every day when you were left to interact with the world that was right around you ... maybe even get bored from time to time.

> you didn't take your cable TV with you in your pocket

Thats a good point I hadn't taken into consideration. Yes we had addictive MMOs and binging reality TV, but they werent portable. The outside world was a safe haven from visual media content.

Portability is definitely a major factor.

Yes, that's big. When we have a family reunion, outdoors in a park, half the family (and all the kids) are staring at their phones, effectively alone. That didn't really exist even 10 years ago. We had phones and social media then, but only the most addicted needed to be active on them so consistently like that.

> Pre the end of the 20th century most people considered knowledge and skill to be the peak of human progression. Now it is money and image.

The 80s would like to have a word

Sorry I meant generally pre the last period of the 20th century, not the actual hard end. IMO you are right in saying it began in the 80s.

And I'd still disagree with you. There's a long line of fops, dandies, social climbers, hangers-on and aspirants however far you choose to look back in history. We may be in a particularly acute period right now but the desire to be wealthy and admired didn't just appear 50 years ago.

Well if it helps, just think that today we have a 2000's reality-TV star as POTUS, so within a short few years, we'll have a TikTok influencer instead :-)

>now it's money and image

It always have been.

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