Which countries would benefit most from an American brain drain?
economist.com
economist.com
In the past, dreams of American opportunity made the tradeoff worth it. But now we're Magaland when the president sometimes crashes the economy on purpose and immigration officials randomly detain scientists at the airport. It's hard to believe that top engineers and aspiring scientists will continue to give it all up for a shot at life here
Two things: "wanted" and "actively doing so" are worlds apart. Additionally, other countries have about the same or even more complicated immigration rules.
The USA are safe from brain drain. And I'm saying that as a one living in Canada with close friends at McGill University - students still see the USA a primary destination of their interest.
If you are a French speaking PhD in a preferred industry who is under 29 years old, you may be gtg.
How does that square with the fact that 1/5 of the Canadian population were born abroad? Seems plenty are able to move there.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/provinces-cracking-down-on-pr...
That doesn't meant that there aren't special programs apart from that. Because I'm not of the demographic, I didn't dig into how a Chinese, Indian, or African student or family, for example, might qualify for residency under whatever qualifications. Last, I assume that there's been a significant amount of refugee resettlement.
But if you are an average person from the US, you may be boxed into the standard calculations.
> [70]: On the number of colonists who fled the American Revolution, see for example, Carl Van Doren, Secret History of the American Revolution, New York: Viking, 1941. [... ...]
A.N. Chomsky, Understanding Power
We’re three months into this administration. I wouldn’t make any pronouncements yet.
With the zeitgeist shifting, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see an exodus of people in the soft sciences and liberal arts though. It’s not like they’re leaving a lot on the table if they leave America.
1. https://www.reuters.com/world/scientists-us-harried-by-trump...
exploring offers at 3 Canadian universities
so, only a couple hours drive further north to continue fairly rigorous data science research
yeah, we don't need that "soft science" nonsense here
Britain
Canada
Germany
New Zealand
Italy
Australia
France
Spain
Switzerland
Norway
Portugal
---
I'm surprised Australia placed relatively low compared to the others. But yeah, that answers the question of which single countries are the most attractive. But none are overwhelmingly importing expats.
That, and the threat of drop bears.
> Our proxy for talent is respondents who said they had completed an undergraduate degree.
Higher education in the US is mostly privatized. Society hasn’t born the cost of those undergraduate degrees. What does the US lose if they leave?
There’s also the question of whether other countries need people with undergraduate degrees. Do they need to save money on training their own citizens in liberal arts, nursing, engineering? That’s a bit unclear.
The more likely outcome is US quality of life & prosperity drops sharply.
Most people don't have the ability to move easily given that most countries require work visas for US citizens.
Does America have this reputation? H1B is around 20% success rate, all the jobs are in places with COL so high you’ll never afford a home.
There are people that at best they don't want to "see", at worst to exist.
It makes sense when thy engage in political activism or become dissidents. Just because they're skilled doesn't mean they can't be legally causing troubles at the same time.
No country tolerates foreigners moving in and acting against the country that took them in. Well, maybe Germany does.
When you emigrate somewhere on a visa, you're a guest in the country who's tolerated as long as you follow the rules and contribute to society, the moment you start causing trouble with protests or become a nuisance, you're out. Simple.
The moment you try to swing a punch against the government that gave you that visa, then that contract is void, and you're out.
I don't see how this is an issue. Are you OK with foreigners coming into your country and starting to go against your democratically elected government(in principle, not just the orange man specifically)? I don't know anyone who wants that. Let citizens deal with their elected government, you can too once you become a citizen, if you want.
One reason is that it is a check on power.
The protestors and editorial writers were typically not arrested for breaking laws. Typically there are some rules on protests, and when they are not followed then police are free to arrest people.
These people are part of the fabric of free speech that adds value to America. It's messier to live in a country like that, but it stops crazy authoritarian bubbles. I think it's slower at times, but leads to a better outcome.
Many American friends I know don't have the same family history surrounding governments like the Nazis, ussr and CCP. These things are worth protecting, and by the time you realize it -- you're too late.
This is my response you asked for. Does it help ?
Secondly, there's big difference between free speech (as in saying what you want openly), and congregating to occupying public or private spaces to generate protests, be loud, obnoxious, block foot traffic, cause litter, incite to violence etc.
Your speech is free as long as it doesn't inconvenience others. Can I come outside your house, occupy the sidewalk and shout in a bullhorn my political opinions at your window 24/7? No? Why is that? It's just my free speech bro. You see how free speech works?
Whether visa holders have such right depends on the countries however; I don't believe France has such restrictions (https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2190 does not mention "political activities" as a valid motive for refusing entry). I think some other countries do restrict political activities for non-citizens.
Do you mean am I OK with legal residents of the US publicly expressing their political opinions?
Yes. Yes, I am. I think it's a good thing, whether or not I agree with those opinions.
And I'll let you in a secret: the legal definition of what is terrorism and what is not, is the one the government and courts decide, not you as a non-citizen. To me what Busch did equates to terrorism, but that's not what the courts decided, so there we are.
That's not your government to protest against because you can't vote as your not a citizen of that country, so that country's leadership is not accountable to you, it's accountable only to its citizens.
Leave that protesting to the citizens, or move to your country and protest in front of the US/Israel embassy from your own country's soil, that's the legal way to do it.
I doubt you would be ok with hardworking moral cowards becoming the teachers, CEOs and experts for america.
It’s a bit sad, because some of the strongest moral leaders in america, have also been the ones who stood up for rights and freedoms. It’s… I mean what would be more American?
Capitulation? Would you respect that?
Most people today are driven by self interest and self preservation, not morality. Anything you see publicly resembling morality is virtue signaling for the sake of optics. Everyone quickly stops wanting to be a martyr when their livelihood is on the line. It's easy to be generous with other people's lives/money.
>Capitulation? Would you respect that?
Capitulation against who? What results did their so called fight give? Other than causing public nuisance. Why don't they go to Gaza and pick up arms if they want to fight? Putting tents in university campuses and shouting from the safety of US public spaces is not fighting, it's virtue signaling.
Do you respect foreigners to treat your country as a battle ground for their ideologies? I assume yes only when their ideologies match yours, but what about when they don't?
> Do you respect foreigners to treat your country as a battle ground for their ideologies? I assume yes only when their ideologies match yours, but what about when they don't?
I respect a good, fair match. I suspect you do too. A good opponent, who puts their money where their mouth is, is someone who pushes you to do the same.
This is also why I framed my question the way I did. I didn’t say which country was a terrorist, I gave it the option of being someone who argued for a position you agreed with. (For example, they could well be protesting in front of the Chinese embassy, being Uighur, or Tibetan.) Should this option only be open to American citizens?
> Capitulation against who? What results did their so called fight give?
Capitulating to whomever is in power.
Contrast the ease of saying stuff online, vs people who physically show up to protests, or say things that are risky and have consequences.
I respect people who actually put themselves at risk. They can be entirely wrong, their cause riddled with flaws. But then I didn’t find it in me to show up and engage in debate.
I guess, to each their due.
It can well be the case that the visa has provisions that allow rescinding it for the things that you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure that they are discretionary, not mandatory, so no need to cower at the words of these students.
Your point is just makes no sense to me.
Even as on today, moving to India and Indonesia and similar countries will bring similar quality of life that people get in the US at a lower cost. Rents, Healthcare, labour all are much cheaper. Interest rates are much higher.
You'll even get things like quick-commerce, which isn't really taking-off in the US.
At least in America if you’re not a fan of the Trump administration we’ll have another leader in a couple years. You can’t say the same for China.
> we’ll have another leader in a couple years
Depending on how you look at it, it could be seen as a disadvantage. China's policies are generally long-term and stable.
I think the problem is that the US presidency is too powerful, it might be better to turn the presidency into a ceremonial position. It shouldn't be possible for the president to do all this damage.
“[Political factions] are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government and destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”
Brain drain from the US will be a dispersion that will hurt America but not meaningfully help any single country directly. At least in the short term.
But China has a lot to gain from a weakened America simply by being the best positioned, most aggressive secondary power.
Of course you’re right that an individual emigrating from the US to China is economically net-negative for that individual except for in very unusual circumstances.
People don’t have to move to China for them to benefit.
Very few folks are rushing to pay half their salary in taxes, wrestle with EU bureaucracy, and earn 2-3x less pre-tax just to move to Europe. And don’t get me started on bottle caps screwed on so tight you can't drink from them.
I could go on about memeI'd love for everything described in this article to be true. If the U.S. really were pushing talent away en masse, maybe my odds of getting in would go up. But I have serious doubts.
Very few folks are rushing to pay half their salary in taxes, wrestle with EU bureaucracy, and earn 2–3x less pre-tax just to move to Europe. And don’t get me started on bottle caps screwed on so tight you can't drink from them.
I could go on about meme-tier Canada or even more meme-tier Australia. As for India or China - most people didn’t leave just to go back.
Sure, Trump is scaring off a few people, but most of those at risk - without roots, degrees, or real work experience - will fight tooth and nail to stay. Deporting one unlucky grad student probably won’t shift the odds in my favor. Pity.
Disclaimer: I’m IT-focused. No clue what’s going on with nuclear engineers or scientists. Maybe they live in a parallel universe.tier Canada or even more meme-tier Australia. As for India or China - most people didn’t leave just to go back.
Sure, Trump is scaring off a few people, but most of those at risk - without roots, degrees, or real work experience - will fight tooth and nail to stay. Deporting one unlucky grad student probably won’t shift the odds in my favor. Pity.
Disclaimer: I’m IT-focused. No clue what’s going on with nuclear engineers or scientists. Maybe they live in a parallel universe.
Tourism is rapidly down, which I feel like is not a bad proxy on how much people want to go to a place.
Add in that the US continues to state it wants to invade greenland and canada.
There is vanishingly little US "leftist media", and none of it is concerned with a brain drain from the USA. It's mostly outlets in the historically center-right media, including some of those who went out of their way to kowtow to Trump immediately before and/or shortly after the election, that have done so. Unsurprisingly, because "brain drain" is a concern of their corporate capitalist constituency, and not so much of the anticapitalist left.
(That said, it is a real and measurable thing, irrespective of what political faction finds it most concerning.)
Here's an old, sad, joke:
What's the difference between a physicist and a large pizza? The pizza can feed a family of four.
Separate these two things out perhaps ?
The stuff that’s happening now with enshittified tech and resources being poured into that.
Everything that happened before that, which set up the infrastructure.