Comment by trchek | Hacker News Reader

Comment by trchek | Hacker News Reader

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I understand everyone has different experiences and I have the advantage of having personal experience to the contrary so I don’t judge this opinion, I knew people where I grew up that believed this to be fact.

To better inform everyone their are plenty of French laws and announcements that are translated to English ( I moved there right before Covid and had to rely on said services at first ).

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/R2771?l...

And they provide state news services in various languages including English

https://www.france24.com/en/ https://www.rfi.fr/en/

More complicated for your argument is there are parts of the USA that have had Spanish as the primary language since they joined the USA. San Antonio, Texas for example I don’t believe has ever been majority anglophone and it doesn’t become more anglophone the further south you go. My wife’s family has been in Texas since it was Spain, and they only in very recent generations switched to English primarily.

I’m not sure if you find any of this convincing, but I hope at least realize it is a bit more complicated than you may have realized.

> To better inform everyone their are plenty of French laws and announcements that are translated to English

This is not the point. The point is that there should not be an expectation. French is the language of France. Moving there and expecting people to communicate you in English is not something we should be celebrating.

> San Antonio, Texas for example I don’t believe has ever been majority anglophone

This is not true. 2/3rds of San Antonio households speak English at home. Then you add in people who speak another language at home but still speak English.

https://satxtoday.6amcity.com/most-common-languages-san-anto...

This isn't about expecting "people" to communicate to you in a language they don't speak, it's about expecting state institutions to communicate in their citizens' language. French public institutions definitely use languages other than French where it's regionally relevant. It's not mandated (only French language is mandated) but they do it because when you take taxpayers money to function and provide services to them, you don't get to be fussy when they show up and ask that you speak their language.

France is in a league of its own in this regard, since French is not just the official state language (and has been for some time, not a few weeks like in the US), but it's also the mandated language for commercial and business use. However, the French state doesn't just mandate that, it also creates the conditions for it, for instance by providing (and requiring) free, universal French-language elementary education for all its citizens.

And even so, they're still not universally French-only, even though they're probably the most centralist of all EU countries in this regard.

> when you take taxpayers money to function and provide services to them, you don't get to be fussy when they show up and ask that you speak their language.

Citizenship and residency have both benefits, but also obligations. GP moved to France without a good grasp of the local language.

Note: I'm importantly not talking about the native minority languages in France.

> Citizenship and residency have both benefits, but also obligations. GP moved to France without a good grasp of the local language.

A good grasp of French language is not a requirement for French residency. Some visas require it, but not all, and if you can travel and reside in France without a visa, you don't have to know it. For EEA and Swiss citizens, all you need is a valid ID and a clean record.

> Note: I'm importantly not talking about the native minority languages in France.

Why not? NWS translated languages in minority languages of the US, that's exactly what this is about.

English was mentioned above the GP, which is why it was brought up, but European institutions commonly provide English translations along with regional languages in part because a lot of the EU population is bilingual. That actually helps a lot, especially since state regulation is a little slow to catch up with society at times. E.g. where I'm from we have a sizable Turkish population, and while Turkish is an officialy-recognised minority language, some local institutions are slow to catch up with population dynamics, so a lot of Turkish residents end up perusing the English version instead and they're fine with it.

I learned fast enough it was my 4th language. I have passed the C1 level exam (advanced, I would have struggled in my mother tongue), responses below you are correct though, you can learn as you arrive. This is IMO the best of all worlds, as it brings in talent and encourages integration.

>Citizenship and residency have both benefits, but also obligations. GP moved to France without a good grasp of the local language.

It's an interesting one. I guess it's a requirement to learn French to naturalize as a French citizen, but there isn't an obligation to speak it if you already are a citizen. It's pretty subtle difference.

On the other hand citizenship in question is not really French citizenship, but European citizenship. It's polite and makes total sense to learn French when living in France, but not a legal requirement. As a citizen of another member state I can just move there and have the same rights as citizens with the sole exception of not voting in the national elections.

That's where we differ. Of course, you're not obligated to speak French, but to go and expect people to communicate you in your language, not theirs, is highly entitled.

You are very right! For example, my work contract was in French and English. The French was the legally binding text. I found this an excellent balance.

Re France listen the French are super duper proud of their language and rightfully so, it’s still practical to communicate to your residents important information.

Re San Antonio, they actually are counting the metro area which brings in a lot of white suburbs and throws the numbers off a lot but in the interest of being balanced, let’s say I’ll concede the point.

There are still a lot of US citizens in San Antonio that speak Spanish primarily, I think you’d be surprised by this, I know I was the first 200 times I met someone like that, lots of people there with roots back several generations still speaking with English with an accent.

Considering I grew up outside in San Antonio, I don't think I'd be surprised at all...

Well met, I love that part of the world and I have many happy memories of my time there.

So I guess I just misunderstood where you were coming from but I’m interested as I also see in another thread you commented on this :

> Citizenship and residency have both benefits, but also obligations. GP moved to France without a good grasp of the local language. Note: I'm importantly not talking about the native minority languages in France.

So can you elaborate a bit on your comment about minority languages? I believe there are way more multigenerational Spanish speakers in the former Spanish/Mexican parts of the USA than there are Basque, Alsacien, or Breton speakers, so if I understood you correctly you’re ok with some carve outs for the Alsaciens, Catalans, Bretons and Basques of France. If you disagree with the above statement or if I just misunderstood I’d be interested too.

PS yes I moved without perfect French, but it wasn’t for lack of trying and experience in learning similar languages, in the end, I just wasn’t willing to bail on my employer last minute who’d put all this money and planning into this, so I just muddled through. It worked out after all.

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