The issue is those people who want to completely dismantle the state of Israel and evict (or kill) all the Jewish inhabitants. They call themselves "anti-Zionists", but they are simply racists because they are fine with the Arab citizens of Israel.
This is equally as wrong as those Israelis who want to wipe Gaza off the map and occupy the entire West Bank. Sadly for the Palestinians, a bunch of people who believe this are part of the Israeli government.
https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-...
And entirely different matter is the fate of the people who are not citizens of the state of Israel. Where do you hope for them to live (and why)? Surely not in the pluralistic state we just talked about, since peaceful coexistence is far from a mainstream viewpoint among that population, to put it mildly.
A relevant Ask Project video from recent memory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grq1Ro9vlyU - note that none of the Palestinians consent to living peacefully with the Jews in one state.
Combine with upcoming extra-judicial detentions of citizens (we are already detaining legal immigrants in El Salvador), it's required to create a culture of fear and submission.
That it happens to be against a specific group of people is irrelevant - this is the tip of the spear.
While criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic much of the antisemitic rhetoric of the past has shifted toward targeting the state of Israel instead of Jews as individuals (once the Jews were expelled/driven from those nations and no longer a convenient target). Israel is often held to higher political and moral standards than other nations under the guise of justified by its classification as a Western democracy. For many this uneven scrutiny mirrors historical patterns of discrimination, now aimed at the Jewish state instead of (often no longer existing/relevant) local Jewish populations. In some circles, classic antisemitic tropes have simply been reframed: accusations once directed at “the Jews” have been redirected toward “Israel” or “the Israeli lobby,” invoking ideas of secret influence or global manipulation that echo longstanding racist narratives.
Source: I'm not jewish but in any racist feeling conversation I invoke that I am in order to challenge fascists and more often than not invoking that surfaces that the conversation does in fact have anti-jewish sentiment. What I find especially uncomfortable is how little historical context or nuance is expected when discussing Israel, compared to nearly any other nation or group. Conversations that would normally require sensitivity, acknowledgment of trauma, and awareness of systemic patterns suddenly become blunt and ahistorical when they involve Israel. The level of deference people extend to other populations in terms of lived experience, historical persecution, and collective memory often disappears entirely in this context.
If you really think it’s just a “guise” then I can understand your point of view. But it’s very hard for me to agree with that assessment. Israel is treated entirely differently than say Islamic countries in the West. We would never accept the blatant disrespect for international law that they display if they were an Islamic nation, and just keep sending them weapons.
So I’d say the source of the tension is that Israel isn’t really a Western democracy, but it enjoys the privileges of being one.
Yes, I do think many people see “Western democracy” as often being a rhetorical guise when it’s used around Israel. The same critics of Israel were making these arguments long before October 7th, so for many observers, the current surge in moral outrage (justified or not) feels like theater, moral framing being used to amplify preexisting criticism. Similar to how some accuse Israel of using antisemitism as rhetorical cover. Also it's kind of a jerk/manipulative move to start with 'if you truly believe'. If you don't think I'm acting in good faith just straight call me out next time.
Saying you don’t think it’s a guise doesn’t really engage with the perception that it is. To me that feels like sidestepping the core concern rather than trying to understand it. And saying you don't view Israel as a Western democracy doesn't really shift the conversation, because the anti-Israel rhetoric I’m referring to is often based on the claim that “we expect more from Western democracies.” Dismissing that framing removes you from the very context that kind of speech operates within — and makes meaningful engagement with you around with it much harder/irrelevant.
Israel is a Western democracy just like the U.S. was during Jim Crow, or Ukraine is now (or is aspiring to be) despite suspending elections during war. Flawed Western democracies are still Western democracies. The issue is not the label, it's how it’s used, and whether we're willing to apply a contextual lens so that we can have understanding when we evaluate them.
What sets Israel apart is its situation. That's the whole point I'm making, there is much more than a bullet point checklist that anti-Israel people want to reduce the discussion to. It’s a democracy under constant existential threat, surrounded by actors who call for its destruction. Its people carry generations of trauma. From the Holocaust, from exile, from violence, some so much historical anti-jewish hate, propaganda, not even relating to the conflict. That context matters and shapes how speech is interpreted on the Israel supporting side. And it shapes the urgency with which threats rhetorical or real (or nonexistent but perceived) are received. When we critique Israel as a democracy we need to also extend the lens of historical memory, lived experience, and threat assessment that we apply to others. Otherwise that can get interpreted (rightly or not) as not about democracy but about double standards. Otherwise we are just saying 'bad is bad' which while totally true and valid, isn't productive.
Understanding doesn’t mean agreement. But without context, it’s easy to lose sight of why Israel supporters see the world the way they do. As a country shaped by exile, historical isolation, and the memory of being targeted for elimination by their neighbors when they lived in previous nations, now facing neighbors and groups that continue to call for its destruction. Criticism that ignores this doesn’t create accountability it shuts down meaningful dialogue. It was hard to make America see how horrible it's Jim Crow era was, and American's weren't implementing it in part out of current and historical existential threat (unless you believe 'white replacement' racist bullshit). Without allowing for the lense your opposition are viewing the world from the other side isn't going to hear you because to them the lense is very import to understanding their position, it in fact shapes their position.
Trump himself dabbles in antisemitism, see evidence I have provided here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43640267#43640505
I don't think grants should be pulled nor do to I support Trump's policies. I don't think all criticism is anti-semitic, but I understand why/how they way some people approach it.
What abouting other situations isn't a response, especially when I am talking about why people have specific feelings about a specific situation. Again you are failing to engage and instead yourself are going off on a tangent.
Probably not. I grew up with extreme left-wing parents deeply involved with the Palestinian cause (but don’t sympathize with their views myself). I’ve heard them and their friends express a vicarial, seemingly irrational distaste for the US and Israel infinitely many times. I’ve also heard a lot of terror romanticism, not just for Palestinian terrorists but also the IRA, etc. But I’ve never heard anyone express any animosity towards Jews as an ethnic or religious group.
I think I can understand where the misunderstanding comes from though: These are very ideological people with deep seated feelings (hate mostly) connected to those ideological views. Most people don’t think or feel that way, and the closest thing they can relate to is racial hatred. So that’s the inference they make. In Swedish there’s a saying that roughly translates to “as you understand yourself you understand others”. I think that’s mostly what we’re seeing here.
This is a very interesting point.
My mom was very pro-Palestinian. She came to it from midwestern U.S. Irish/German Catholic doctrine. It very much had an anti-semitic component in that context. And it became apparent to her when I called out some of the attitudes/things people were saying as a kid. It's part of what caused me to adopt a default 'I'm going to challenge the popular narrative' position even though I'm not jewish, because even my mom unintentionally had accepted it and incorporated it into herself.
The midwestern catholic block I grew up in actually makes up more than my mother. Which again highlights your anecdotal evidence/experience/understanding being a Sweden centric view that doesn't comprehensively understands the U.S. centric topic at hand.
But of course, Trump and his people don't care about truth, logic, hypocrisy, morality, justice, decency, or anything else. They support Israel and are thrilled to see Palestinians killed. They also hate "the left", people in universities, and anyone who disagrees with them.
So, they will use any rhetorical tactic no matter how brazen or outrageous to discredit the protestors and create the narrative they want. It is about fabricating their own reality.
In this specific case I imagine they also find some amusement in "using the the language and tactics of the left against them." I.e. pretend to be fighting against bigotry.
Being anti-Zionist - but only to the Jews in Israel, and not the Arabs, is also antisemitic (and racist).
"Intifada" just means "uprising"; the original Palestinian intifadas referred to nonviolent work stoppages, protests, etc. The attempt to imply it means something grosser is your ignorance and/or racism.
> Being anti-Zionist - but only to the Jews in Israel, and not the Arabs
This thought is incoherent. It's like saying Blacks protesting America are also protesting Black Americans.
It's a palestinian response that in essence says "no, you're not going to wipe us all out, we will be free."
Also it's very hypocritical, gaslighting, and manipulative to pearl-clutch about "from the river to sea" as Netanyahu (of Likud) and Trump openly plot to displace all Palestinians "from the river to the sea". It's one thing to say it, it's another to do it, as the Israelis are. It shouldn't be surprising though. Likud has openly been saying for the last 50 years this was their plan. Likud still does speeches with images of "Greater Israel" on the lectern. The pearl-clutching and gaslighting is just to paralyze and distract while they execute their land grab and invade the neighboring countries.
"recent studies have shown that a better predictor of antisemitism is not a right or left-wing perspective but a conspiratorial worldview and a penchant for authoritarian type of government"
I struggle to put my finger on who that reminds me of.
https://2021-2025.state.gov/from-right-to-left-and-in-betwee...
It's a rhetorical weapon to call people who are critical or people who have been harmed irrational. It switches the roles of abuser and victim by accusing the victim of irrational hatred towards their abuser.
The only reason that word isn't experienced the same as the other words that express an identical idea is because of the horrific history of violence against Jewish people carried out by Nazi Germany, legitimizing the word.
Times have changed and Israeli's find themselves in the position of power rather than on the receiving end of it, so they consume the legitimization of the word while abusing it in the same way all other authoritarian regimes abuse language. Worse, actual anti-semites are able to abuse the word to harm jewish people, their history, and damage the word/idea itself.
Here is a more eloquent explanation of the whole thing by Timothy Snyder: https://snyder.substack.com/p/antisemitism-and-antisemitism
For that mater, I wouldn't necessarily use the word Sinophobic, but you don't think Asian-Americans being assaulted and harassed over the "Kung-flu" have a reasonable complaint or claim that their abuser was motivated by anti-Chinese sentiment?
Those enemies have long used European allies that descend from a long line of antisemitism, from both left and right wings. They often use "Israel" as a cover for their anti-Jewish beliefs. Several United Nations agencies seem to exist for the sole purpose of condemning Israel, while ignoring much worse issues elsewhere -- and that's not because Israel is uniquely bad.
Israel's right wing government has taken advantage of this. So much anti-Israel sentiment is antisemitic that they can lump in all of the many, many valid criticisms. They believe, with some justification, that they will never receive fair treatment so they might as well do what they are accused of.
I don't wish to "both sides" this. I'm just explaining that Jews have experienced so much bad faith argument that even Jews who are disgusted by the Israeli government expect outside criticism to come from a similar malfeasance. Maybe you specifically want to have a good faith discussion, but statistically the odds aren't great. So the arguments get shut down by the most expedient means, not the most correct ones.
I already said that antisemitism is one reason one might not support Israel, so of course I don’t dispute that some anti-Israel organizations are indeed antisemitic.
But we’re not talking about Hamas; we’re talking about Colombia students. Is there any evidence that they openly supported Hamas? If not, why is it relevant?
But I'm not sure what other pro-Palestinian protests have occurred since 2023 other than pro-Hamas protests. Have there been any explicitly pro-Palestinian protests that have advocated against Hamas, or for any other political entity?
As for Columbia... no, there's zero reason to think they supported Hamas. There might well be antisemitism in the roots of this somewhere -- left-wing antisemitism is a real thing and didn't appear in response to Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
But there is zero reason to think that the people being harassed are antisemitic. That is a right-wing belief that all Muslims are terrorists.
Just to be clear about my perceptions: Israel does face serious terrorism from Muslim countries, and I think that this reaches American young people by being "washed" through anti-semitic (white) intellectuals. But attacking university students for their sincere and non-violent beliefs is horrific (even if I think that some of their beliefs are wrong).
But, it's a self-serving myth that enables them to overlook the outsized role of their policies in fomenting anti-Israel sentiment. The Holocaust created a ton of worldwide goodwill towards Jews that Israel has completely squandered in the decades since WW2 with their treatment of the Palestinians.
By loudly proclaiming that anti-Israelism is the same as anti-semitism, Israel has made it hard for themselves to distinguish between the two, but easy to brush off legitimate criticism.
If you're supporting the dismantlement of the only Jewish state, like Hamas is, then you are in a precarious situation: why do you argue uniquely against Jewish self-determination?
Do you routinely protest in support of tear down all nations without prejudice, or just focus your antinationalism on the one liberal, democratic Jewish state? If so, why do you feel that only the Jews lack the right to defend themselves as a nation? Is it because you prefer to see the Jews defenseless against harassment and attempts at their genocide?
But how many protests have you seen outside of Israel that were debating a narrow Israel domestic policy issue, versus calling into question the legitimacy of the "Zionist entity"?
Everything you've typed is an attempt to deflect criticism of Israel by exploiting Jewish sentiment, and it's frankly gross.
The protests against Israel are by and large about their treatment of the Palestinians. I'm not close enough to know how many are really advocating for dismantling the state. I'm sure some people do believe Israel is "invalid" since it was created by imperial whim and displacement of the local Arabs. Of course if you take that stance then it's hard to justify the existence of many other nations, the US included. Israel just happens to be more recent and the world has different standards now.
But anyway, the answer to your question is majorly complicated by the fact that many of the most anti-Zionist people are... Orthodox Jews. They seem to have well articulated answers to your questions that can be found online.
There's like 6 of them, and they are called Neturei Karta. The other several million Orthodox Jews do not share their views.
On top of that they are only against having a specifically Jewish government (they refuse to vote), but they do NOT agree with not allowing Jews to live in Israel.
On October 8th, 2023 in Times Square while the blood was still fresh on the ground from the massacres in Israel, protesters chanted "Long live the intifada" and "Smash the settler Zionist state". Visibly Jewish people were followed and had "Hamas should have killed more of you" shouted at them. All only hours after the invasion.
Harvard's Palestine Solidarity Committee (in)famously issued a memorandum right after the attack "hold[ing] the Israeli regime entirely responsible for allunfolding violence."
On October 9th at the Sydney Opera House, hundreds of protesters chanted "F** the Jews" (and allegedly "Gas the Jews").
In Grand Central on October 9th, protestors marched for the "resistance" (i.e. Hamas) and "right of return" (i.e. banishment of Jews from Israel).
All of this happened weeks before the ground invasion in Gaza began on October 27th. Two days later, dozens of travelers were injured as hundreds of protesters stormed a flight from Tel Aviv landing in Dagestan, Russia, as they sought to harrass "Jewish refugees" (i.e. Israelis). Of course, the global antisemitism only continued to climb, with 10,000 incidents recorded in the 11 months following 10/7.
Even this week, a pro-Hamas group organized a shutdown of Grand Central Terminal, while in the real Gaza, protests are sweeping the strip _against_ Hamas. If the mission is solidarity with Gazans, why not protest in favor of the issue that Gazans themselves are risking their lives to advocate for: the removal of Hamas?
I don't think the article is saying anti-Israel is antisemitism. My reading is there are antisemitic behaviors within the anti-Israel protestors.
> Citing “serious and pervasive” problems uncovered through nearly 500 student testimonials, the faculty task force recommended revamped anti-bias training for students and staff and a revised system for reporting complaints about antisemitism.
> Jewish students felt pushed out of many clubs and organizations
https://apnews.com/article/campus-protests-israel-palestine-...