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Comment by earnesti | Hacker News Reader

Can you elaborate on the technicals? Is it a phone app? Does it work through QR codes or NFC? Is there a Pix "card"?

Brazilian here.

- no card

- technically not a specific app, its a payment method that any app with a checkout flow (for example) can chose to implement.

- you register some id with your financial institution of choice (any of CPF - equivalent to SSN, CNPJ - for businesses, phone number, email or a randomly generated key).

- keys are fully portable, as in you can revoke em or change the bank institution they're associated with any time.

- you can generate a QR code on the spot so the person paying can just scan it

- transfer is pretty much instant (under 5s seems to be the norm)

- no NFC (so works with any crappy phone)

- since its a bank transfer, and since bank transfers are insured up to 200k (afaik), its pretty safe.

> you can generate a QR code on the spot so the person paying can just scan it

You can also generate a R$0,00, print it and leave to the other person input how much will be transferred.

PS: Pix is so trivial to us that only in places like HN we can see how amazing it is

Brazilian banking system is quite well developed for a long time. Let's see if Pix being ubiquitous can help the country better develop economically, with better wealth distribution, innovation and high-paying jobs

> its a bank transfer

why can't we just use qr codes with ibans in that case?

You can use QR codes with your Pix address. I don't see why it would matter that much? I think the IBAN system is mostly used in Europe.

Because the underlying "account" is not necessarily a Bank Account.

I guess that's because pretty much nobody in Brazil knows what an IBAN is

That's something I've wondered for a long time. Especially know when real time bank transfers aren't allowed to cost more than regular bank transfers (usually free), there's really no point in creating a seperate system.

But it seems to me like banks don't really want to make bank transfers more comfortable for small transactions.

> - no NFC (so works with any crappy phone)

It is possible to pay using NFC now

There's NFC support now... You can now use Pix inside Google Pay (with NFC or QR code etc as well).

Technically Google Wallet. There is no GPay app in Brazil.

It's a framework laid out by Central Bank and mandatory for medium and large-sized banks and payment companies. (For small ones, it's optional.)

Pix has several rules that makes up for a nice UX, such as being free for personal use and a 10-second limit to get a response after a transaction.

Pix is an open source specification, btw: https://github.com/bacen/pix-api

Pix is basically a commercial name for two services:

- SPI: responsible for the payments

- DICT: responsible for mapping keys to accounts

The API documentation of those services are available, but only banks can use them. When a person wants to send money to another, there's an option in the bank app for sending through Pix.

Then you have many options to define to whom you'll send that money:

- typing the bank account information

- using the Pix key (which can be an phone, email, CPF/CNPJ (brazillian documents) or a generated key)

- scanning a QR code

Note that the two latter options don't require the account information. That resolution is done by DICT.

After that, you type how much you'll send (sometimes the QR code already contains this information). Then it'll send through SPI.

And yeah, it's really, really fast.

This sounds really cool. Is there a verification step where you confirm that the right number or identifier was entered for the first payment to someone? That's always one of my biggest concerns and I don't want to enter a number twice as the verification.

The UX is standardized by the Central Bank and they mandate a step showing the name of the person/company associated with that Pix key before you make the payment. So you can always double-check.

That's exactly what I was looking for. That sounds great

You can see how it works in this video, after 3:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvz0Yiss4Go. It's in portuguese, but I think you will understand how the interface works.

Note that it is from a bank app (Nubank), Pix itself is not an app. Other banks have similar interfaces

Does the format for the ID have a check digit in it? Like IBANs and credit card numbers can both be checked offline by an algorithm to tell you that you've made a typo.

From my reading, the system seems like it's intended to be used with a connected device and scanned/copypasted rather than typed or read over the phone.

The CPF (persons) and CNPJ (companies) numbers has two check digits.

You use your bank's phone app. You can scan a QR code or you can send money to someone if you know their "id string", like a phone number, an email or a random string of numbers - you choose the "id string" format you want, and you can have different "ids" linked to different bank accounts. There are no physical cards.

What happens if you miss-type the email or phone number when making a payment? Is there any confirmation of the persons name?

> Is there any confirmation of the persons name?

Yes, and it's a small privacy leak in Pix: it shows the person's name and part of their CPF.

That doesn't sound small?

It helps to prevent scams because you know who the money is going to (not foolproof, of course). CPF in Brazil is not as fragile or sensitive as the SSN in the US. You can't easily wreck someone's life just because you know their name and CPF. CPF numbers are shared pretty much everywhere since it's a unique identification code for a single person. All businesses ask for it when they're generating invoices/receipts etc. You basically use your CPF everywhere and there's virtually no risk in sharing it. That's not to say that identity theft is not a thing in Brazil. It definitely is, however the damage is usually not as bad as the stories you hear in the US and the blame is usually put on the banks / service providers for not doing the proper KYC to verify the documents. It'll be a headache for the person, but usually something that is quickly fixed.

Before Pix, people already needed to put the full number, the CPF, and Bank agency number, so it's an improvement compared to old Brazilian transfers.

assuming that the typo didn't lead to an invalid/unregistered key, you will see the recipient's bank, full name and masked CPF number in the confirmation screen.

I really dislike the lack of a more anonymous way to transfer money but given how prevalent scams are here I feel like there was no better option.

Also, before PIX bank transfers required a person's full name, full CPF number, full account and branch numbers so arguably PIX is helping to improve privacy a little bit.

However the big issue is when people register their phone numbers as PIX keys because it means strangers can easily get full names from phone numbers.

Google Wallet also supports Pix via Open Finance. You don't need your bank app after going through account linking.

(Googler, opinions are my own.)

You can have several unique keys, a few are unique to the whole system (like your phone number, Physical Persons Register (CPF)), but you can have several randomly generated per bank. Usually you tell someone your phone number, otherwise the random generated string is a big string, and you actually show them a QR code so they can transfer to your account, and vice-versa.

It's a functionality of banking apps. Yes, transfers are done either via a QR code or via one or more "Pix Keys", that the person/bussiness authorizes in their baking app. These keys can be the brazilian equivalent of your SSN, a cell phone number, an e-mail address or a randomly generated UUID-formated one.

>Can you elaborate on the technicals? Is it a phone app?

Isn't paying with some phone apps the default in China? And I think transferring using phone apps has some success in Africa, too.

I used Alipay (which is an Android application where you add a debit or credit card) for absolutely everything when I was there in October of last year. Sure seemed like everyone else was using it too.

Except for Hong Kong, they have their own thing. I just used Google pay there.

Does HK still have Octopus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card

I remember encountering that before London launched Oyster, probably inspired by it. Worked in station vending machines as well as for tickets.

Yep, Octopus is everywhere. Alipay HK is also almost everywhere. Different app than mainland China but basically the same.

It's a protocol. You make payments through your bank app. You can make payments directly, basically a bank transfer, or through a QR code.

True that, ISO 20022 based.

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