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Comment by rafram | Hacker News Reader

I just don’t buy this argument as a reason people don’t want EVs. The primary benefit of an EV is that you ~never need to stop and “refuel” it unless you’re making a long road trip. You can install a charger at home, even a very slow one that doesn’t need a special circuit, and always have a full battery in the morning. When you do need to stop on a road trip, you can use fast charging, which is ~250 kW, so somewhere around a quarter of the gas pump’s “wattage.” You’ll probably want to use the bathroom/buy a drink anyway, so charging taking four-ish times as long as pumping isn’t really a big deal.

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> You can install a charger at home, even a very slow one that doesn’t need a special circuit

Lots of people rent, and might not have a parking space with charging available.

That said, battery and charging technology is evolving, so it might be a solved problem 10 years from now - especially as Toyota and Idemetsu Kosan are on track for mass producing Solid State EV batteries by 2028 [0]

[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/japans-idemitsu-buil...

Yeah, of course. I’m a renter, I understand. Some states [1] have laws allowing tenants to install chargers, although obviously not all renters have designated parking spaces. Where I live (NYC), most people rent and the idea of a “tenant parking space” is fairly foreign, but there are a decent number of EV chargers on the street in my neighborhood, so people make it work.

[1]: https://americanlandlord.com/california-landlord-tenant-laws...

> You’ll probably want to use the bathroom/buy a drink anyway, so charging taking four-ish times as long as pumping isn’t really a big deal.

That doesn't take nearly as long as charging, nor do I need to do it as frequently as I would need to charge. And even if it did, the places where you can do that, and the places with chargers, aren't the same.

Maybe the US will get there in a decade (or two at current rates), but for now a PHEV seems like the best of both worlds.

For the routes I take on road trips, this is already the way. Lots of nice rest stops with lots of EV charging. Some restaurants, clean bathrooms, convenience stores to buy whatever snacks, etc.

I stop, go to the bathroom, grab a beverage, and by the time I'm back to the car I've got more than enough charge to hit the next stop. Coupled with Blue Cruise and road trips have never been so smooth and easy.

And I'm in Texas, a place you wouldn't expect to be some EV mecca.

> The primary benefit of an EV is that you ~never need to stop and “refuel” it unless you’re making a long road trip.

Maybe for some people. I bought an electric car in 2018 because I think over the long haul that, first, they'll be better for the environment and second, disentangle my country from foreign energy producers. Note: I'm not saying EVs or current battery tech are perfect in these ways now, just that I think they have better long-term potential, which will only be realized if people buy imperfect EVs today to justify investment in making them better tomorrow.

All that said, while my family has never had a problem with charging on long-ish road trips (we like to take a break and get out and walk around,) I don't expect everyone to have the same attitude. Some people really don't like the idea of a 20-minute "fill up".

What I'd really like to see - what I hope gets developed long term - is a fast-battery-pack swapping system. Bonus points for a standardized form factor from SAE or some similar standards body. This could solve a few problems:

* Faster recharges on trips - potentially faster than filling up a gasoline or diesel vehicle.

* Optimized energy use, at least to a certain extent. Battery packs could be charged off-hours to reduce load on the grid.

* As part of the cost of swapping the pack, the charging station could take on responsibility for repairing the battery packs.

Battery packs are the most expensive single component in most EVs, and I think some people do have anxiety on getting stuck with a five-figure repair bill if their battery pack goes bad.

Obviously there's a lot to work out, both technologically, and vis-a-vis the business model of a battery swapping network.

The current bet is more towards even faster chargers, possibly with batteries supporting them in the back.

The problem with battery packs is that batteries age. It's not like returning a propane tank and getting a full one. If you just bought your car and you go to refuel and they swap your once used battery pack with one that's seen ten thousand charge cycles you aren't getting a fair deal.

I totally get where you're going with this, but propane tanks also age. One time I swapped the tank, and when I got around to replacing it less than a year later it was past it's certification time and they wouldn't take it unless I paid to get it recertified someplace else.

Much less of an issue than getting a bad battery though.

Why do you care if your interest in the battery pack is that it lasts 200 - 300 miles? The only way this model would work is if maintenance/replacement of the batteries is the charging network's problem.

Not sure it’s practical to hot swap EV batteries right now.

“An electric vehicle battery typically weighs between 300 kg (660 pounds) and 900 kg (2,000 pounds).”

https://poweringautos.com/how-much-does-an-electric-car-batt...

It's possible, NIO has battery swap stations, but I don't think it's really viable.

This is especially true, given that advances in battery tech, and fast charging are going to eliminate the need. Recharging as fast a petro fuel filling have already been demo'd.

Of course, here in the US we don't need any of that commonist technology. We're all so great, we're gonna say "Please, Please, don't make me any greater!". Can't wait 8-/

So, qualify what I wrote before with: _in_China_ they'll be able to charge as fast as a refuel.

https://www.nio.com/nio-power?&noredirect=

But it begs a question, who’s liable when the battery is swapped to some faulty unit that catches fire when it’s in your car?

Presumably the battery network would have insurance and would factor that into the cost.

(I’d expect that all-in, this gets a lot closer to the cost of a gasoline fill-up. My current charging costs are far lower than the equivalent cost to fill up with gasoline, but my primary interest in this is environmental. I’ll take the lower cost while I can get it, but I don’t expect it to last forever.)

The weight is the most trivial problem to solve in this whole problem chain. A hydraulic lifting apparatus capable of moving a ton that fits under a passenger car is something that exists today.

Getting automakers to agree to a standardized form factor (and to not put non-battery components in their battery packs ala Tesla,) automatically locating and removing whatever retentioning mechanism is used, having a large enough stock of batteries at each “filling station”, etc. are more difficult problems.

But, as I said, I hope this does happen in the future.

I don’t want an EV because it’s too freaking expensive. That’s basically the only reason at this point.

In the US if you buy before the tax credits go away you can get a Chevy Equinox EV for around $27500.

I bought a used 2023 Nissan Leaf for $15K. It had 18K miles on it, 150 miles of range on a full charge, and still 5 years on the battery warranty, and 2 years on the bumper to bumper warranty. I did admittedly find a good deal, but this is not unobtainium

A friend wanted one of those licensed electric golf carts to drive around town, it cost more than my car.

With off-peak charging, (and the cost of gasoline in San Diego) I expect the car to pay for itself in fuel savings in ~5 years.

How many years will it take an inexpensive gasoline car to pay for itself?

lol at that level of “good deal” one could find a recent low-mileage gas car for half what you paid. $7500k will pay for a lot of gas.

Yes, about 2 years worth at my 300 mile/week usage and San Diego $5/gal gas price.

After which, the gas car continues to use gas, and I continue to save $3000/year by not buying gas...

But your comparison is valid. You could also compare the saving of the small, gas efficient, car to the choice of buying giant, low milage truck or SUV.

BTW, this good deal was not a once in a lifetime thing. I see EVs in this price range on craigslist routinely...

> I just don’t buy this argument as a reason people don’t want EVs.

These descriptions are unrealistic to our experience. We're on our third EV, so plenty of experience with this. It's always a pain to go anywhere outside a small area. Just this week my partner needed to go to a nearby city 2hrs away. Round trip too long for the EV. Luckily my office is halway there and has chargers, so stopped by for 2.5hrs to top up the batteries. That's a longer refueling stop than the whole trip. Faster chargers exist but they are few and far between, usually broken or taken, so finding one is an exercise in frustration.

> You can install a charger at home, even a very slow one that doesn’t need a special circuit, and always have a full battery in the morning.

It takes us three days to fill up the car at home if it gets really low, not having a special circuit. So if the car was used yesterday it won't be full this morning.

The only way this works at all is because my partner normally only needs to commute about 30 minutes and only twice a week.

'The primary benefit of an EV is that you ~never need to stop and “refuel”'

I beg to differ: The primary benefit of an EV is that I am not handing over my hard-earned post-tax income for oil to countries that loath my way of life and my values.

Some decisions in life should transcend economics.

If you’re in the US, most oil is domestic, but obviously that doesn’t make it much better. (If you’re not, sorry - “my way of life and my values” is very US-coded language.)

In not in the US. If you are, then the analysis just goes down one level: do the people in the USA that sell you domestic fuel share your values.

I submit you would be a lot better off with EVs for this reason alone.

> You can install a charger at home, even a very slow one that doesn’t need a special circuit, and always have a full battery in the morning

I am fortunate enough to own 2 homes, and neither can do what you suggest since they don't have off street parking.

I won't bother arguing the rest.

I just got a RAV4 Prime (a “plugin hybrid” or PHEV).

In EV mode, it has 40 or so miles of range. That’s high enough that I never need to use gas during the week, unless I go to the next city over. It’s also low enough that it can always fully charge overnight without a special circuit.

If I need to go further, it just becomes a RAV4 Hybrid (with better performance - aka HV mode). No long waits or searching for chargers needed.

Generally I put in maybe a half tank of gas ($15) once a month. Especially in the US, I really think PHEVs make much more sense than EVs. BYD seems to make some really nice ones, but we’re sadly hostile to them.

No, I’ve road tripped around the country with both types of vehicles. It’s delusional. And I’m not anti-EV by any means, I like them, but when you do need to use public charging, it sucks.

The charger may be right on the on your route, which is nice, but it often isn’t. If it’s five minutes out of the way, that’s an extra 10 minutes on my trip +20 minutes of charging. That’s a half hour where a gas station would’ve been three minutes. There are a good amount of times when it is more than five minutes away.

That’s extremely common and even supposes the chargers are available, I remembered to pre-condition the battery, etc. all of those are not given.

And for preservation of battery life you’re really operating with 60% of the stated capacity because you’re keeping it between 20 and 80 all the time. So a 250 mile range is really 150. I have had it happen where I drive two hours, spend a half hour charging, rinse, repeat on a road trip.

> unless you’re making a long road trip

Yes, but that’s enough to really make road tripping on an EV a chore.

> When you do need to stop on a road trip, you can use fast charging, which is ~250 kW, so somewhere around a quarter of the gas pump’s “wattage.” You’ll probably want to use the bathroom/buy a drink anyway, so charging taking four-ish times as long as pumping isn’t really a big deal.

Yeah, no.

My gasoline car gets ~400 miles to a tank. Well, more than that: 400 miles is effectively the "no matter the circumstances [that cause gas mileage to be sapped], I can always guarantee making it at least that," not like EVs where the range number tends to be more of an aspiration than a reality. Admittedly, I have a small sedan which gets ~40mpg on the highway, but it takes less than 2 minutes to fill it up at the gas pump (about 100s IIRC, I did actually time it). Even derating for less fuel-efficient cars, you're comfortably extending your range by > 100 miles/minute of charging.

The EV charging, by contrast, is going to run something like 200 miles/20 minutes. That's a multiplier closer to 10×, not 4×; it makes the time you need to stop to charge it much more considerable.

But the range issue means I now have to slot an extra major stop. Sure, I can fill up during lunch. But that isn't enough to get me to my destination--I still have 5-6 hours of driving after lunch (sometimes more, since I like to take early lunches to avoid crowds). That extra stop takes longer than all of my bathroom breaks on the trip, combined. That's a not-insignificant amount of extra time on my trip.

The other consideration is that, if you're trying to tell people to overlap charging with lunch, well have you seen how crowded the travel plazas get on a busy travel day? They can get so packed that every parking space is taken up. The fill-up-while-you-eat rule suggests that pretty much every single one of those parking spaces needs a charger, most of which don't have the room for a charger as it stands.

Took a trip to Canada with my brother in his new EV. Trying to get an EV spot at the hotel was a nightmare and when one finally opened up, the charger was incompatible. Most charging stations weren't in convenient locations and the ones that were, were slow and required you to pay through an app. I'm not anti EV at all, but the experience of dealing with charging issues outside of the day to day routine was pure shite.

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