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Comment by JKCalhoun | Hacker News Reader

I can't imagine what your career was.

I was a programmer at Apple and have to really scratch my head to think of any way I might have even slightly worsened someone's life.

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> I was a programmer at Apple and have to really scratch my head to think of any way I might have even slightly worsened someone's life.

If you were responsible for itunes I could give you a few examples.

I (along with others) created pricing optimization software for the multi-family housing industry.

Let me gather some pitch forks..

A good apology requires:

- overt recognition that I have harmed someone else

- following through on whatever reparations I can make to undo part of the harm

- actively trying to change myself to avoid making the same type of mistake again.

It sounds like you have taken this to heart.

As someone who has dabbled in real estate, this doesn't sound all that bad.

Yes, some (most? not sure) such companies did some wrong stuff - and perhaps you were involved (you don't really say, so I'm guessing).

But the category itself? It seems fine as long as they follow the regulations related to price fixing.

When you said you caused great harm in your professional life, I was thinking more along the lines of "being a terrible person to work with", which is probably more in line with the original person you responded to was thinking.

> It seems fine as long as they follow the regulations related to price fixing

This would be the "if it's legal, it's also ethical" fallacy.

You're getting some flippant, dismissive responses, but I applaud your perspective and your acceptance of the partial responsibility you (and most of us) bear. It takes courage, introspection, selflessness, and a broader, empathic worldview. If more people were like you, the world would be a far better place. Thank you.

That said, I am sorry you've been burdened to the point of depression and personal struggles. It can be a natural outcome of difficult realizations and guilt, but I don't wish it upon someone for longer than necessary to make positive changes in their life (which you seem to have achieved, given your openness).

Thankfully, it is not difficult for me to see a past version of myself in the flippant or dismissive responses, which makes them considerably less painful. I can only hope the authors are faster studies than I was.

Thank you for the kind words. They were uplifting and appreciated.

I have worked with online gambling. An industry where for most companies the bulk of the income comes from the addicts, not the non-problematic gamblers.

I thought I could dissociate work-for-pay from my sense of self enough for this not to matter. It's all mercenary work, right? I've never cared about most of it, right? What's the difference?

I made it about three months in that industry. The pay was great but I was hardly sleeping by the end of the first month.

I found my limit, I guess.

I too dissociated from my work and I did it for decades. This is not a healthy thing for a human to do and there will be an emotional debt paid, at some point even if only done for weeks, or months.

I'm glad you did not last long in the industry, for your personal and our collective goods. I hope you're in a good place today.

Sadly and unfortunately, in addition to the MFH ills that I have done, I also was involved with optimization for gaming hospitality as well as systems and tools around slots optimization.

I regret my involvement here as well and am sorry I did what I did.

Is it so hard to imagine areas of the software industry that produce real measurable harm? One doesn't even need to go so nuanced as gambling or other such things - how many software engineers does the 'defence' industry employ?

There's also software engineers that work in ads. Instagram [known to have a causal effect in eating disorders, which is one of the more deadly mental illnesses]. Health insurance [unitedhealthcare was using software to automatically deny people healthcare-- this definitely has killed people].

Working for a megacorp famous for blatant anticonsumer practices, I have to scratch my head to think of an innocuous IT position inside it. Maybe infrastructure? Even seemingly innocent roles like design have dark patters at their core that use things like green bubbles and social pressure as part of their sales strategy.

I’m sure the employees of Bayer and their suppliers told themselves the same thing during WWII. We’re just making tools and equipment that let the bad guys do their work. We aren’t actually involved in the bad stuff.

I took a job at Boeing when the 787 was being built, with those fancy engines and airframe designs that improved efficiency considerably. But I did the math and I want to say you still have a bigger footprint in the new planes than driving a family of 3 to the destination in a private car, and that’s before you include Jevon in the picture. Never mind rail or other forms of transit.

I left that place much less proud than when I arrived. I left before that turned to shame, however.

Can’t drive a car across the corn, though.

After I left the MFH industry I took a position at AWS. My thinking at the time was this was a safe "infrastructure" position where I could apply myself in relative safety just worrying about bits being pushed around the internet.

However, after taking a good hard look at my past career contributions, it was impossible for me to not apply the same moral framework to my involvement at AWS. And while it wasn't quite as direct harm in the way of my MFH optimization work, it still wasn't difficult for me to see that if I succeeded, while the bits would flow fast and the metrics would rise high, I wasn't doing good. I was, at best, furthering an exploitive system.

While I don't feel the same level of regret for my contributions to AWS, I don't feel good about my contributions either.

It's really uplifting to hear this? If it's not too personal, what shifted your perspective? Have you been able to reach out to people in a similar situation?

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