Comment by M95D | Hacker News Reader

Comment by M95D | Hacker News Reader

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Let me say from the start that I only saw Framework laptops in pictures and I still have my old Lenovo X60 Tablet.

I hate Framework laptops' design. They went to the extreme of repairability but only as a marketing tool, while the products are still e-waste trash.

I looked at Framework 13 laptop as a replacement for my X60 Tablet. Let me do a comparison between them:

  - FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane.
  - X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back

  - FW13 has 2 internal expansion ports (M.2, I think), both permanently occupied by storage and wifi
  - X60 has 2 internal expansion ports (miniPCIe): one is occupied by wifi, one is for WWAN (optional). Storage is in a separate SATA bay.

  - FW13 has no external expansion slots, except if you count USB as expansion
  - X60 has 1 external expansion (PCMCIA/Cardbus type 2) - far more robust than USB-C, and the metal case provides cooling

  - FW13 has 4 USB-C ports, one is permanently occupied by the power cable
  - X60 has 3 USB-A ports (far more robust than USB-C), while charging is a separate barrel plug (also far more robust than USB-C)

  - FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter
  - X60 has VGA-out directly from the GPU

  - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card
  - X60 has preamplified headphone-out and mic-in (also has internal microphone)

  - FW13 has video camera
  - X60 does not

  - FW13 has stereo speakers
  - X60 has a single mono speaker

  - FW13 has no ethernet, except as a USB adapter
  - X60 has gigabit ethernet

  Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't:
  - Touchscreen with pen, some models work with finger too, some don't
  - great keyboard and also some extra hardware buttons such as volume, instead of key combinations
  - Fingerprint reader
  - SD card slot
  - Firewire
  - IR port, fax/modem (not much use these days)
  - An attachable dock (not wired like current USB docks) that can house a CD/DVD drive, or another HDD/SDD, or extra battery and has another 2 USB ports, RS232 and parallel port.
  - There's also an external battery module that directly connects to the docking port.

Please note that the X60 is ~15 years old. This wasn't a performance comparison.

So, yes, framework laptops are repaireable, but they're so crippled, there isn't much left in them to repair.

There's some mis-information here:

Yep on battery - I rarely use mine while traveling (and rarely travel) and set max charge to 60% so it should last a good long time, but it can be replaced when I need too. I replaced 2 in my black Macbook and once in my iPhone 3G (but I got 8 years out of the phone). When my work MB Pro had a battery bulge, the whole machine was replaced and presumably recycled since it was not repairable.

Internal, yep, but nvme > SATA any day.

They are usb-c yes, but the ports are adjustable (can mix usb-c, usb-a, display-port, hdmi, network, storage, etc) so it's not as restrictive as you seem to be implying.

On video, I am not sure if you think it's some kind of DisplayLink thing but it's alt-dp over usb, directly connected to the GPU.

My 13" has a headphone jack (and passable speakers) and a built in Mic (and both the camera and mic have switches to disable them).

2.5GB Ethernet is available as an expansion module.

I find the keyboard and touch pad okay! I don't really need a touchscreen.

On ports: I don't use the finger print reader (but it has one). I don't need SD card slot all that often (but is available). I don't have any FW devices (and 400Mbs vs 5-10Gbps). Don't need a modem or an IR Port

I don't use a dock (I do at work for my MB Pro - but it's mostly a permanent desktop configuration so I don't mind that it's connected via usb-c). The one I got IS compatible with my Framework 13 though.

I had a t61 for work and I loved it... in 2009 . I should have bought it from the company when I left but bought a black Macbook instead

  - FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter

  - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card

That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards.

  Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't:
  - Fingerprint reader

https://frame.work/pl/en/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=F...

  - SD card slot

https://frame.work/pl/en/products/sd-expansion-card

> - Fingerprint reader

My mistake.

> That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards.

> - SD card slot

Like I said. The laptop itself is very basic (crippleware by Lenovo standards). You have to use USB ports for everything, there are only 3 usable, and also mechanically very weak, not to mention performance, heat inside a closed plastic case, cost, etc.

As a person who uses devices w/ Wacom EMR digitizers by preference, the Thinkpad X###T line is one I _really_ wanted to like, but the difficulty of getting a reasonable OS on one, with handwriting recognition, with manageable performance/thermal characteristics pushed me to the point that I gave up and moved on to a Asus Vivotab Note 8, and then a Toshiba Encore 2 Write 10 when it was offered.

I keep telling myself I should try an X230T and Linux --- if there was a Framework device which supported Wacom EMR, I wouldn't have to. That said, my next major tech purchase is an rPi 5 and a Wacom Movink 13.

thinkpad soldered ram is a no for me

My X60t has 2 RAM slots.

> - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card >That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards.

Also, unless something has changed or I am misinterpreting what they are saying, the fw13 does have an audio output that is not an expansion card.

Indeed! I was not aware of that as I have the 16, which doesn't feature it.

Community forum posts from 2021 suggest they sort of forgot to include this information initially.

It so happens that the audio jack in my previous laptop started getting loose after four years, which was a first, as usually it was the USB ports which would go, so having it as an expansion card was a major selling point for me.

This really is a device for people who tend to break things despite relatively light usage. I for one damaged the screen in every single laptop that I had.

As I said, I never saw the FW16 except in pictures and everything I know about it was from the net. I might be wrong about some of the things I wrote.

So, does it really have a headphones jack or not?

My X60T headphones jack only recently started to cause troubles after many many years of use, but it was an easy fix: drill 3 tiny holes in the connector casing and push a needle through each one to bend the contacts tighter.

I don't know about the 16, but my 13 definitely does have one.

The F13 has it, the FW16 does not.

Anyway, I'd rather just disassemble the expansion card and solder in a new port should this ever come to pass, as it's just a question of undoing two screws:

https://community.frame.work/t/whats-inside-the-audio-expans...

> FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane.

> X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back

Yeah but the FW13 battery also lasts several times more than the battery life you get out of swapping two or three X60 batteries on the train.

Also, VGA out is useless in this day and age and USB-C is not only robust but also way faster and more capable.

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