[flagged]
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: it looks like your account has been using HN primarily for political battle. That's a line at which we ban accounts, regardless of what your politics are or aren't. See https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... for past explanations.
If you'd please revert to using HN as intended, we'd appreciate it.
As a European I also find insane elections are held on workdays (in France it is always on Sundays), that you may have to wait in line for hours to vote, that voting stations may be hours from where you live, etc.
Basically you need very specific letters where your exact name and address must match but those are issued without checking. So if one uses your middle initial instead of your name then no ID for you until you get it reissued.
In Texas they have a shortage of staff issuing the ids too so there is a 3 month delay after you apply to find out what you did incorrectly https://www.statesman.com/story/opinion/columns/2024/08/19/t...
So show your drivers license at the voting booth? Why is that unacceptable?
If they just said "accept more IDs" instead of "stop voter ID requirements" people wouldn't think its a problem, but that isn't what democrats are saying.
People using others papers to vote, that is much harder if you must display a photo ID together with the papers you received that says you are allowed to vote.
Voting without an ID is like opening a bank account without an ID, its just dumb. Oh wait, I heard you had that as well in USA, which is why you have issues with identity theft...
Except every analysis has shown people are not doing this. Oddly, the few times there have been real cases, it's often GOP voting more than once or for their dead spouse or some such.
Think of it, if someone is truly not eligible to vote, why expose themselves to additional scrutiny for a single likely inconsequential vote?
Where fraud could happen is at scale, and with DOGE getting access to all systems and dismantling the agencies that guard against voting fraud, I feel that once again we're seeing that every accusation is an admission.
https://www.npr.org/2024/10/11/nx-s1-5147732/voter-fraud-exp...
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/reso...
It's another GOP boogie man used to suppress the vote. Personally, I'm a fan of legally mandating everyone vote or pay a fine like in Australia.
It would be different if we were solving a problem with voter ID laws because then you're balancing rights with real pragmatism. You can as hypothetical about it as you want, you can go down the slippery slope fallacy if you want, but the evidence shows us we do not have an issue here.
It would also be different if IDs were easier to come by, because then the burden is not disproportionate to the problem. But neither of these things are true.
Instead we're just enacting barriers to the use of our constitutional rights, barriers to participation in society, not to solve a problem but to enact a political end.
There's also additional requirements of your gender matching your ID (which eliminates many transgender folks), your name matching on all documents (good luck if you're a married woman), etc.
Folks are rightly pointing out that these laws are engineered to suppress votes, and you seem to not be willing to listen to understand why.
Are you saying democrats will engineer these laws to suppress votes? Is that why democrats don't have voter id laws? The GOP isn't relevant here, we are just wondering why democrat states can't seem to do this.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/chal...
> Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options. > More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.
https://www.democracydocket.com/analysis/how-id-requirements...
> According to the study, between 15 and 18 million people in the U.S. lack access to documents proving their birth or citizenship, which can be integral to acquiring other forms of IDs.
This can force circular dependencies: for example, older black or Native American people who were born when they weren’t welcome at hospitals might never have been issued a birth certificate so they first need the travel, expense, and difficulty to get one from the clerk where they were born. Poor people are far more likely not to have bank accounts, so they can’t establish their in-state residency that way, etc.
None of these are insolvable problems but the people pushing restrictions haven’t been willing to put effort into solving them and often make things worse by cutting office locations and hours in ways which disproportionately impact poor and minority voters.
[1] https://cdce.umd.edu/sites/cdce.umd.edu/files/pubs/Voter%20I...
[2] https://papersplease.org/wp/2024/06/07/who-lacks-id-in-ameri...
In other words, it's not "people need driver's licenses to vote".
Trump changed voting rules to require proof of citizenship[1].
Disenfranchising 21 million voters makes sense now, no?
[0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/213-...
[1] https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/25/politics/voting-proof-of-...
Do you think there's a chance there's a selection bias to your random sampling of the population?
Incidentally, there are many less privileged people around me and, let me tell you, they're not going to work on foot.
The selection bias of extrapolating an entire country (not to mention one as large and diverse as usa) by using your friend group should be very obvious.
Incidentally, my friends are much more likely to not need to drive at all (tech or otherwise who WFH) than the average person around me.
> live in a large city
Ah yes, large cities. Famous for their rural populations.
Wait, are you telling me that rural populations have less proclivity to drive?
FWIW googling, allegedly 1 in 10 people in rural america do not have a license. Or at least that is the claim floating around the internet. So yes, i think figuring out if this is a real issue should include both checking on rural and urban people, along with many other demographics. It is not obvious how this situation differs between urban/rural.
I work a furry convention in the Southern US, about 3% of our attendees have some ID related malady - can't get a timely appointment at DMV, missing core documentation, unable to prove residency, etc - nevermind rural voters who may live hours from a DMV.. which they can't get to without a license (assuming they can afford a car) or a ride. No bus service to speak of either.
Its a huge issue, I'd 100% support voter ID if getting an ID was free and easy, without it I'm skeptical.
I feel bad for the people in states that don't require court orders for this because they apparently have the worst time trying to update accounts.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/feb/19/john-olive...
> driver's license
Republicans are trying to make it so that the vast majority of drivers' licenses do not work either. You may have to get a new one, with passport-level paperwork.
Yeah, everyone you know has a valid ID because you don't live in a battleground state that is currently fighting electoral welfare. Republicans don't care to put up barriers to getting an ID in California, Texas or New York.
Our ID department has buses with computers and cameras/fingerprint machines on them, they go to remote villages and stuff and take everyone's bio data, then return a few weeks later and give everyone their cards.
There is literally NO valid excuse for NOT implementing voter ID.
NONE.
If we can do it, the richest country in the world can do it.
Such a pathetic hill for American Democratic party to die on.
There's no "government comes to you" to give you an ID. And, many Democrats would love to make it easier to get an ID, but the Republicans often deliberately make it harder to get an ID.
They shut down offices and reduce hours of locations, so people have to travel farther and take more time off work. They increase the bureaucratic requirements and hurdles, so people are more likely to need to take multiple trips.
I personally wouldn't have a problem with making a voter ID a requirement to vote, if we could also agree to make it as easy as you describe to get an ID. The problem is the GOP wants to require getting a voter ID and simultaneously make it harder to get an ID.
But yes, I agree, it is a pathetic problem for a 1st world country to have - just sort it out.
absolutely not! we have had massive migrations both from India (after independence) and Afghanistan (after the russian occupation). This is NOT a given.
Things have NOT been easy... and in fact dare I say, our ID department is rather dumb and stupid. I personally have had MULTIPLE issues with them.
But we have been doing SOMETHING, and the fact that the US doesn't... is insane.
When a child is born, the parent has to get them registered at the local council office. And then when my first card was made at 18, my dad went with me as verification, he attested that I was child #X as per the family tree, they confirmed someone with my name was in that family tree in their records, and used that as verification for me.
If parents are not available they can use relatives, as long as there is a family tree link. Not sure how they do it otherwise, but there is some system for refugees etc too.
Democratic states collect taxes and implement policy independently, they CAN do this, at least in their own areas.
Start there first!
Start small, but START. Start from Democrats accepting what every LEFT leaning person the rest of the world accepts: Photo ID is necessary, not to reduce voter fraud or whatever, but necessary to increase TRUST in the system.
It's a cost, just pay it. Yes you will lose 'face' to republicans, don't care.
Start small, start with free/cheap photo ID in deep democratic cities (I know local govt providing service, what an idea!).
Once saturation reaches 80% plus, start enforcing voter ID laws to cajole the last 20% to start applying, carrot and stick. Start offering door-step service for those unable.
Democrats pay taxes, don't they? start using them.
Spread to other cities in democratic states. So what if it takes 10-20 year? Times passes like nothing.
And once you have SET the standard of cheap, reliable access to Photo ID... and when democrats in power in the federal government again, they can use that to help implement cheap photo ID elsewhere, but even if Missouri doesn't get voter ID, it doesn't excuse democratic states NOT having it.
The fact that the DMV is only open three days a month or whatever? If it's a democrat led city, FIX it. If it's a republican city, you can come to it later.
But NOT starting, as some sort of fake 'rights' issue? Bullship.
Start. Start Small, Start NOW. in 25 years you won't even remember this.
The population WANTS this piece of bigotry, heck our ancestors voted for the damn thing it, it's literally the 2nd amendment of our the constitution.
You can't blame NADRA for including it in their forms, they do it on government demand. Heck, I had to sign the damn thing to get my damn passport, there is no escaping it.
But NADRA also has vans that go village by village providing photo-ID on the doorstep. And THAT is accessibility.
Do I wish this piece of bigotry wasn't in on our forms? Yes. Today Ahmedis; tomorrow Shias; day after who knows, it might be me.
Does it mean CNIC are BAD? NO, they are perhaps the only actually part of cour damn governance, being able to provide ID.
We could obviously do better, but NOT having ID is crazy.
It is an Anglo-American thing not to have PhotoID probably related to never been invaded in the last two hundred years.
The issue is that to get back in power the Democrats need votes top overturn Republicans and so the IDs in Republican states matter those in Democrat states do not. So better top show full disapproval as they won't lose any seats over that and can keep some pressure up.
Some people in the UK had the same 'oh no we are being outnumbers' sort of mentality, and without mandatory ID, they had no sane voice in their head to tell them 'don't be silly, we track people with cards'.
It's funny how much the existence of the card gives the masses a weird sense of peace.
That sounds like it would be way easier if those people had id's...
I think democrats started out with good intentions, helping enfranchise black voters a part of the civil rights act .... but somehow they have made it their morality point and refuse to accept that it is no longer fit for purpose.
They should made no voter-ID a temporary measure and created proper voter-IS systems in the meanwhile.
Now imagine the opposite. A government that’s not interested but rather is motivated in denying some people an ID. Why it increases that’s party likelihood of staying in power.
https://youtu.be/rHFOwlMCdto?si=OjoxCfE1noxvw3Fz
And you need to do paperwork, which means you have to pay and find time. How do people with 2 or 3 jobs do?
https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2024/01/number-of-licensed-dr...
So forgive me for being flippant but....how hard can it be?
>>How do people with 2 or 3 jobs do?
I assume they drive to those 3 jobs, so they somehow found a way.Again, sorry for being dismissive, and I appreciate it might be time consuming at costly - but still, 91% of all American adults have found a way to do this, so my point is that driving licences(along other documents) seem like a perfectly acceptable form of ID for voting?
Simplest answer is they don't care, wash their hands off of the whole thing and then democrats complain that it's the requirement to identify voters that block them. But it's not a strange requirement, it's as you say, a completely normal part of being a citizen to get an ID, and a duty for a voting citizen to do what they need to do to get that ballot in.
And even if black people were somehow disenfranchised from getting IDs, it doesn't prevent the non-black people to vote rationally, in the end. So no excuse.
As a black American who had crackheads in my family, I don't know anyone who was totally incapable of getting an ID card. I only ever see the argument brought up by white people on the Internet. Tyranny of low expectations. Heaven forbid that black adults be expected to shoulder some personal responsibility and figure out how to meet the basic requirements to exercise their civic duties, same as white people.
"The white liberal is the worst enemy to America, and the worst enemy to the black man." -- Malcom X
My mother's side of my family is from North Philadelphia, same state as the first black woman featured in this video.
I spent three weeks in the US in 2021 when my mother had a psychotic breakdown and I had to put her life back together on short notice. She had lost her wallet and all ID. I got her a brand new birth certificate in Philadelphia and a NJ State ID to replace her Driver's License. This required setting up some appointments either online or via phone, and bringing some documents along, but it was manageable.
Expecting someone to have original birth certificate, SSN proof, and spouse's death certificate is....normal adult document management. I deal with a similar "burden of proof" every time I go to my local Japanese city office, or to immigration to renew our residency.
The next anecdote in the segment blasts Sauk City, Wisconsin for the ID center being closed on most days. According to Copilot, Sauk City is 96% white, with a median household income over $78,000 and a population of less than 4000. So a small middle class town of white people rarely has the ID office open? How is that supposed to support the argument that mandatory ID requirements disproportionately affect minorities again?
The second half of the John Oliver clip focuses on the voting events not the identification acquisition problem so I don't consider that part relevant and won't dissect it.
So it always blew my mind Americans split themselves in random colors (especially the hispanics, like, why) and enrages me the self-described "whites" are so dismissive of the ability of "black people" to be, like, completely normal and boring and able to get whatever form is needed to vote...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/eligib...
Seems to work fine. I dont think we have ever had any issues with that system.
It works because voting in Australia is compulsory. They must have your name on their list, they cross if off it and hand over the ballot paper. The checks and balances you might expect and done after the event, making it fairly secure.
Only of those checks is you did vote, and a fine follows if you didn't.
That's not really an issue, if you have enough polling stations. Denmark typically have elections on a Tuesday (but can technically be any day of the week). We have 80%+ turnout, one of the highest in the world, for countries without mandatory voting. The day of the week doesn't matter, IF you ensure that it sufficiently easy for people to vote.
If you actively try to make it inconvenient/impossible for people to vote, then it doesn't matter if it's on a Sunday. My take is that part of the US political system need as few voters as possible to turn up in order to have a chance of winning, so they will make it as complicated and inconvenient as they need it to be.
Because you have to have an ID to do almost everything else in the country so everybody already has an ID and opposition to voter ID makes no sense.
Also many states have accompanied their stricter voter ID requirements with reducing the number of offices that process applications and with reducing the hours they accept applications so that even if you can get a free ride to an office you might have to take an unpaid day off from work to do so. That can be a significant loss for many poor workers.
> Because you have to have an ID to do almost everything else in the country so everybody already has an ID and opposition to voter ID makes no sense.
Yet many millions get by without an ID [1]. A lot of things you probably think cannot be done without an ID actually can.
For example how can you cash a paycheck without an ID? You need an ID to open a bank account. An answer is you can cash checks using a third party endorsement. You don't need a bank for that. You just need a trusted friend who has a bank account. I'd guess that this is what the 6% of Americans without bank accounts do (23% among those making less than $25k/year) [2].
How about getting a job without ID? First, there are a lot of people who don't need jobs (e.g., the stay at home partner in a household where one partner works and the other takes care of the house). Second there are a lot of job that pay cash and are off the record.
Also there are a fair number of people who once had ID but no longer do. It has been a very long time since I've actually needed to show my driver's license to anyone.
My banking is all online, as is my check cashing (my bank has a great "deposit by photo" function).
When I signed up for Medicare, Medigap, and a Part D plan that was all through ssa.gov and medicare.gov, with no need to show ID. That was apparently all covered by when I showed ID years ago when I set up ID.me as a login method for my ssa.gov account. It will likely be the same when I apply for Social Security benefits. Afterwards all my interaction with SS and Medicare should be through ssa.gov and medicare.gov.
If when I'm older I am no longer fit to drive and let my driver's license expire and don't remember to get a state photo ID then there is a good chance I can live the rest of my life comfortably without ever running into anything where that causes problems.
The simplest way, though, to see that it is possible to get by reasonably well without an ID is to note the large number of undocumented workers that the current administration is trying to kick out. They are able to come here, find places to live, and get paying jobs all without a state issued photo ID.
Whatever they are doing citizens can do too.
[1] https://www.voteriders.org/analysis-millions-lack-voter-id/
[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/23percent-of-low-income-amer...
Where did you hear this? When I lived in Pennsylvania, it was really easy to get a state ID. Just go into the DMV, show them your documents, pay the fee ($42 now), and you have your ID within the hour. They had centers all around the city, and they're open on Saturdays. Personally, I think this is an extremely weird hill for Democrats to want to die on. Most independent and swing voters think its a reasonable requirement.
You need ID to do a lot of stuff just like any other country.
(as an aside, it would be very funny to me if the they used the driving license for electronic signing of official communication with the authorities like we use it in some countries in the EU).
You also seem to think everyone has a car and thus a driving licence.
And that's before talking about voter roll purges, gerrymandering and putting ballot boxes and stations away from "certain type" of voters.
I don't see how those two are related. In UK driving licences are also used as de facto ID everywhere(you can even get on domestic flights using your driving licence lol), and everyone gets one when they turn 18 because just get a provisional driving licence(identical to a normal one but with an L on it to indicate learner driver), no car necessary. In effect everyone in the country has a driving licence even if they don't drive or own a car. And you just apply by post, no need to go anywhere,
Obviously it would be much better to do it like other European countries do it and just issue everyone with an actual ID when they turn 18, but what UK is doing is close enough equivalent of this. So if the US has the DMV and already has an easily accessible way for people to get driving licences......what's the problem?
Some would be caught out if their passport has expired.
https://www.southend.gov.uk/elections-registering-vote/chang...
Just look at the actual facts, as you say.
https://theconversation.com/almost-2-million-people-in-the-u...
The voting booth refused to even register this, yet the apologists claim only 1 in 400 were denied.
"We found that around 0.5% of all voters reported being turned away at polling stations as a result of lacking ID in the local elections of 2023. We also found that four times as many people (around 2%) reported not voting because they knew they didn’t have the right ID."
2.5% is 1 in 400
Anyway, this is sort of by-the-by. Most adults have driver's licenses, and no one in Alaska is going to reject your Tennessee-issued DL so it is a de-facto national id.
In a properly functioning democracy barring 9% of your voting population from voting because they lack an unrelated document (why should a driver's license be linked to ability to vote?) would be considered a major flaw.
You may elect to have your DL as a voting document as a convenience. It doesn't mean you have to have one in order to vote. A state's Board of Elections will issue you a voting document.
It's not, it's just one of many acceptable forms of id - along with a passport, birth certificate, and probably few others.
>>In a properly functioning democracy barring 9% of your voting population
Unless they are stopped from obtaining any document then they aren't barred from anything. Most Americans don't have a passport either but no one would argue that they are barred from travelling internationally, they just have to go and get a passport issued.
Making it difficult (as the article states, this 9% do not have ready access to documents proving their citizenship) is essentially barring with extra steps.
I hate this semantics/loophole game Americans like to play, seems to be quite common in your society to use the "akshually, technically" and going completely against the spirit of something. The spirit is: this makes it more difficult to vote, it will inevitably bar some people from voting, it's just salami-slicing...
I'm not American and I don't know why you'd assume I am - to me the fact that americans don't have ID requirements to vote is insane.
>>as the article states, this 9% do not have ready access to documents proving their citizenship
Again, do they simply not have them because they never bothered to get them, or are they unable to obtain them? That's quite a big difference.
I also hope we're not saying that if someone turned 18 and just simply never bothered to obtain any kind of acceptable ID(and there are usually many) then it's somehow unfair to not let them vote - because I really struggle to see how that would be true.
I get it that some states try to disenfranchise people and obviously that's wrong but the answer to that cannot be "voter id requirements are bad".
b) A lot of those people who didn't have IDs have either gotten IDs or died off by now, so the Republican advantage of voter ID laws has faded.
c) Given (b), Republicans have moved on to other tactics like voter purges, shutting down registration offices and polling stations to create long lines in urban districts, gerrymandering, and limiting early voting and mail in voting. One of their favorite tactics is limiting early-voting mailboxes to one per precinct, whether that precinct has 1,000 voters or 1,000,000. You can guess which way the crowded urban precincts tend to vote.
The whole idea is just to put their thumb on the scale enough to discourage some small % of voters in the swing states that determine our president every four years. If you live in California, no one cares how you vote for President.
(Wish I could find a photo of a giant, fake driver's license on foam core with a rectangle cut out for the person to stand behind when a photo was taken.)
> Parties that try and gerrymander end up finding that their clever scheme comes back to bite them, as dare I say we found by insisting on voter ID for elections.
> We found the people who didn't have ID were elderly and they by and large voted Conservative, so we made it hard for our own voters and we upset a system that worked perfectly well.
But also because of that registration, getting a kind of ID involves making an appointment at the county house, filling in a form and handing over a recent portrait photo. It's a bit of a hassle but nothing extreme.
This whole thread is gold. People just casually discussing why it is necessary for America to enslave the world AND it is beneficial for the world. The color revolutions were successful in other countries until the DeepState decided to bring that "social engineering technology" to home. Somehow people think they can contain such moral corruption just as plasma is contained using electromagnetic coils in fusion reactors.
Voter ID is very common and sensible. The UK introduced it recently and while it did disenfranchise people this was not to the benefit of the party in power when the law was introduced.
Trump lost the $30k–$50k democraphic by 9 points in 2016, but turned around and won it by 6 points in 2024—a 15-point swing! Meanwhile he won the $100k–$200k and $200k+ demographics by ~2 percentage points in 2016, but lost it by 5+ points in 2024 even while winning the popular vote.
It's possible that this was a one-off and not a major permanent realignment, but it's definitely not as clear cut as it used to be.
Basically the law they would need is "states can do whatever voter ID they want, if it's free and easy to get ID and 9X% of voters not just _can get it, but actually actually have it, otherwise they can't". Or they could have made a federal ID and ensured everyone gets it.
But Democrats always felt that even going ner voter id laws were a bit dangerous. It always rang like "voter suppression" to them (and in many ways it probably was). But they missed the chance to make it impossible for Republicans to abuse it as voter suppression - and here we are now, worrying that there will be voter ID laws despite many lacking ID. It's infuriating.
Why the idea of "we'll just make sure people have ID" is so unimaginable is just completely impossible to understand. It doesn't matter that there is no actual in-person voter fraud. Voter ID laws are a good thing anyway - if everyone actually has ID. It adds trust to the process and god knows the US needs a process where people actually believe it's secure, not just one that IS secure.