Are Levi's from Amazon different from Levi's from Levi's?
nymag.com
nymag.com
But better tip - (if you're not looking for 'smart' denim) buy from eBay. Only buy pairs where everything has been measured properly (waist, inside leg, rise, etc) so you can get close to what you know you fits. You can find 20+ year old Levis for less than $20 - the denim is heavier, the quality is good and they have that perfect 'broken in' feel that makes the jeans feel like your best friend. Plus you can afford to try a few pairs to find ones you love.
I’m not asking to criticize. I’m genuinely curious.
Not even all electronic products always feel the same in one’s hands like iPhones of the same model do. For example I remember back in the day my Xbox controllers would feel different from my friend’s Xbox controllers even though they were the same model and supposedly manufactured the same.
Apple is willing to pay the cost to minimize the margin-of-error at every step.
Another approach to keeping yield high (at the possible risk of hurting your brand) is to do what Intel did with their Celeron line. The equivalent for Apple would be a "value iPhone" which would not come with the same set of expectations from customers.
It is also easy to make thousands of identical items when your build material is solid and can’t be stretched
As for the Xbox controllers, it could be a lot of differences. Microsoft does not feel the need to keep different runs exactly the same. They may be more willing to buy different types of plastic depending on what's cheapest this quarter.
Or it could be much simpler, maybe iPhones do feel different. How much time do you actually spend interacting with someone else's phone (Have you ever even actually touched another person's phone, or just their case?), vs how much time did you spend with your buddy's Xbox controllers?
It probably wouldn't be if human beings had to drill holes in the PCB by hand, place and solder components by hand, and hand-machine the case.
different from my friend’s Xbox controllers even though they were the same model and supposedly manufactured the same.
This could be things like slight changes in the sourcing of, say, springs for an analog stick, composition of rubber used under other buttons, and actual wear on components of the assembly line, like the molds used for injection molding of something with a pebble texture. Not to mention, obviously, that each controller will break down differently over time depending on use.
Hard materials are easier than soft materials in some ways. If you lay a soft fabric out before cutting, is it slightly folded, perfectly flat, taut? It will all make a difference.
Moulding plastic or cutting a hard material like aluminium is more amenable to tight tolerances since you can use the same mould over and over, use the same cutter and the material doesn't flex, stretch or change in any significant way.
Obligatory link to Hillel Wayne's Crossover Project [0]. The short version is that of 17 "real" engineers he interviewed who switched to software engineering, 15 said they consider software engineering to be an engineering discipline. Over the three blog posts he reviews the supposed differences between fields and finds that the crossovers don't agree with most of the stereotypical differences software people believe are there.
There are real differences that they identify, but they're not any more significant than the differences between traditional engineering fields, which are vast. But yes, one of the differences that they do point out is that software is not constrained by the physical world in any meaningful way.
What you certainly cannot do is sample people who have only experienced one field.
But yes, it's not meant to be a quantitative study, but there are a lot of very valuable insights in the blog posts.
And the jump from building academic programs in C/Matlab to building commercial software products is much smaller than the jump from having never used Fusion 360 to designing a commercial product.
Plus, there are many more resources out there for switching careers into software engineering. With CAD, you're kind of stuck with YouTube videos and the odd online course for foundational material.
Coding is 100% an engineering endeavor. And just like any other one, a particular project may not be following engineering best practices and that project may be producing some dangerous garbage as a result, but I'm actually fairly satisfied with my engineering practices, as engineering practices, what with my automated testing, automated acceptance criteria, automated security checking, automated style checking, integrated peer-review practices, performance testing practices, engineering for redundancy and resiliance. If $YOU're thinking the coding world is awfully cowboy maybe that's a sign that $YOU need to up your game with the already-existing and well-documented best practices in our industry. To be honest most other "real engineers" would be green with envy at what we have available to us!
Latency is the first to come to mind. The realities of how systems are designed and how permanent the storage in question is translate to latency and thus frequently performance bottlenecks.
Data durability is another thing to consider. Though frequently that's mostly abstracted away in the lower layers of hardware, system composition, and operating system / file system / libraries generally.
Limitations also exist in raw hardware performance (state machine speed, how parallel the computation can be, how parallel the desired process can be made) and capacity, for processing, temporary memory (RAM), and long term storage. Thermal considerations might also be a factor, but those are usually managed by lower layers and present as capacity limitations to typical software.
Software as a domain for achieving goals does offer an unusually wide degree of flexibility in approach. Today we also stand on the shoulders of many giants, with relatively easy access to extremely powerful systems that can obscure many sins for 'reasonable' workloads.
Make a bunch of them with the same process then bin them based on the variability.
Then look at the Japanese brands. Most of them are reproducing 501s from various eras. FWIW, I like TCB (https://tcbjeans.myshopify.com/) - the price/value ratio is superb, the quality is better than LVC and retail is cheaper. Their 40s and 50s jeans are both brilliant and they age amazingly.
Hope that helps!
My understanding is that this isn't tied to Amazon or any specific retailer. But rather the cutting process for the fabric. They'll cut large stacks of denim cloth in a single go, and that's not an exact process. And that's why you can buy multiple supposedly identical pairs and notice differences.
At least for Amazon, keep in mind that they’re likely not put back into normal circulation if you return them so you’re creating waste where there doesn’t have to be.
Amazon absolutely resells returned items when possible. And if it's not through Amazon Resale, it's by reselling them in bulk lots to people who then make money listing the items on eBay.
Yes some of the absolute cheapest stuff gets tossed because it's not profitable to resell. But in many cases you're not even asked to return -- just keep it and get refunded. (As long as you don't have a history of abusing that.)
Levi's are absolutely going to be resold. Amazon is a business. They're not going to eat a loss when they don't have to.
Amazon routinely destroy returned items, see the investigation for yourself: https://www.itv.com/news/2021-06-21/amazon-destroying-millio...
> Undercover filming from inside Amazon's Dunfermline warehouse reveals the sheer scale of the waste: Smart TVs, laptops, drones, hairdryers, top of the range headphones, computer drives, books galore, thousands of sealed face masks – all sorted into boxes marked “destroy”.
And you think they'll keep a pair of shoddy trousers? I'm sorry to disappoint you but that's unlikely...
And I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the very article you linked to clearly states it has nothing to do with returns. Rather:
> Many vendors choose to house their products in Amazon’s vast warehouses. But the longer the goods remain unsold, the more a company is charged to store them. It is eventually cheaper to dispose of the goods, especially stock from overseas, than to continue storing the stock.
It is about vendors who remove their merchandise from stock because nobody will buy it.
And what are you talking about "shoddy trousers"? It's a pair of Levi's. Why wouldn't they resell them? They already sell them in the first place. It's profit. Amazon isn't exactly in the business of not making profit.
Honestly, even in the store, that's been a thing forever. You'd have to go to the department or mall store and try on a whole bunch.
Lately I've switched to a brand that has stretchier fabric (so small variations in size matter less) and more long-leg sizes (my size is 31 or 32/34 and difficult to find in department stores) and been content.
It’s crazy.
I only wear Oxfords and casual button down shirts, and found that I only ever like the ones made in Bangladesh because of fit and material. I could talk your ear off for 20 minutes about how clothes from X feel cheap, clothes from Y have nice materials but don't fit right, etc.
I just checked my closet, and every single shirt I regularly wear across three brands is made in Bangladesh!
The brands I typically wear are Izod, RL Chaps, US Polo(not RL Polo), and lately some from Kingsize. The latter fit nicely but I find a lot of styles a bit wonky or dated.
Still, I rarely wear those for that reason. They also look like crap at the end of the day from sitting in cars or padded chairs.
I am talking about in normal, everyday (for me) circumstances, this would likely not apply in dire circumstances
I don't say that to be critical if wearing previously worn clothing bothers you. I just bring it up because sometimes things stop bothering me once I realize that they are fairly common experiences.
Here's a quick shot of what the cutting machine looks like: https://youtu.be/oBt85Jgjvng?si=UAU0Jj4q_Vztmi5K&t=680
All this time, researchers have been wasting money on sample sizes larger than 1 before drawing conclusions.
Also, I find the word "commingling" nowhere in the article. It's very relevant to the question of what product you're receiving when you buy from Amazon.
So yeah its annoying, but you get used to it.
I don't think anyone is alleging that BMW is cutting corners on materials shipped to only some dealers for a given market.
Nor is anyone alleging that there's counterfeit Ferraris constantly being snuck onto dealer lots.
What happened here looks closer to lowbrow propaganda or PR, than journalism.
And I suspect that any kids reading pieces like this -- rather than learning from good example -- are instead being confused about journalism, science, and critical thinking.
Please also don't use The Wirecutter as an example of good journalism. It's the worst of a bad lot of Consumer Reports clones with all the disincentives of rapid-fire constant publication and ad-driven revenue. It was bad prior to the NYT acquisition, but it's "bottom of the barrel" atm.
Much akin to CNBC for securities, it's now just a source of noise and, occasionally, even negative signal.
One of these is just "reporting the news". Even the magazine is not called "Consumer Research".
- Are you comparing unpublished personal journaling with professional published journalism?
- Are you saying a comparison garment sample of 2 for a single cohort has merit?
It's subcontracted out to tons of shop, who then subcontract their orders out to even more shops.
Unsurprising that given such a system product varies.
It's a case study. We should, as a public, be scientifically literate enough to parse them. If someone wants to take the bait and publish a double-blind study, by all means. In the meantime, there is more signal than noise in this article.
It's not at all surprising for anything to happen after co-mingled inventory, which should absolutely be illegal.
Walmart created a business practice where many black Friday deals were lower quality products produced explicitly for black Friday sales. So underhanded deceptive business practice in large retailers isn't anything new.
Without a regulatory authority we can expect companies to act in decreasingly bad faith, because who will provide consequences, the other definitely not colluding competitor?
A lot of companies have general WalMart versions of products.
Back to denim, Walmart caries "Levi's Signature" -- those are lower cost (and lower quality) versions of the normal lines.
Governments exist to maintain a commons in the tragedy of the commons.
The market, as well as societal trust, is a commons. People in power make individuals responsible for the commons, which creates a collective action problem, which creates a structural incapability of addressing what is best for everyone, such as being able to trust merchants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem
Walmart has a $180bln revenue, how many states or even countries is that comparable to?
This could easily be counterfeiting via SKU mingling
Basically, it says Levi's jeans are manufactured in several different countries, so that most likely accounts for the variations. And that some of the jeans she bought from Amazon were actually better than non-amazon.
Still. I prefer buying from the Amazon competition in my country. Amazon regularly sends me wrong items.
Out of curiosity, why is the preference for buying from "the Amazon competition" rather than directly from the manufacturer?
The competition might be cheaper than the manufacturer.
Stuff like this, or the JC Penny experiment years ago where the new executive team tried to get rid of deep discount sales and have consistently low prices only to be met with consumer uproar, make me really glad that I don't work anywhere near consumer retail.
From Nordstrom Rack's web site:
This comparable value and corresponding percentage are based on what the item, or similar item, was originally offered for by Nordstrom or elsewhere in the market, which may have been reported to us by the manufacturer.
You can find actual steals if you know what you're buying, EoL items and end of season items for a fraction of the price.
But then there's the cheap shit with the brand plastered on it, which is usually basic garbage, just rebranded.
I had a purse of hers sent back for reconditioning and the regular store didn't seem to notice that it was originally an outlet product (granted, it was like 8 years old at that point).
Granted, not every retailer is like that. GAP brands definitely sell inferior products at their outlet stores. But I don't notice a difference in quality for Levi's stuff at their outlet stores vs department stores.
I think outlet malls are generally seen by consumers as "malls that focus largely on clothing". The only regular malls that have survived in my area are maybe 30% clothing, with the rest being the huge Apple store, restaurants, cafes, jewelry, car showrooms (?), LEGO, overpriced home goods, etc. While the outlet mall remains like 80% clothing.
For Walmart, they have scale and a monomaniacal focus on lowest cost. Each time a contract with a vendor is renegotiated, Walmart demands a lower cost, and they're big enough they get it. The predicable effect is the vendors skimp and cut costs on what they send to Walmart because they're under so much pressure, and Walmart doesn't care as long as they get a lower price. That can mean vendors doing stuff like binning by quality, and sending the worst stuff to Walmart; using a special grocery-store shrink ray for Walmart, special Walmart-specific cost-reduced designs; etc.
There's no doubt Amazon has a problem with fake or imposter products. But every post I seem to read about this is people who unwittingly by from a marketplace seller.
Of course Amazon should do better to regulate those marketplace sellers, but it seems similar to me to someone buying a Rolex from a street peddler in Times Square and being shocked it isn't the real thing.
Same pattern, same denim, same person making them (me), they don't fit/feel the same.
Consistent results when using fabric is hard. Also keep in mind that good denim is practically sheet metal in comparison to most fabrics, so on one hand easier to get consistent results, but on the other hand, even small differences are more noticeable than something lighter or (god forbid) stretchy.
You cannot just engineer your way out of some of the challenges inherit in garment construction (trust me, Ive tried).
I have wondered if even when buying from what looks like an official amazon brand store, you can still get product from multiple suppliers/locations, including some that have counterfeits? Anyone know if this is feasible?
It doesn't seem likely to me that (eg) Levi's or Gold Toe are doing this on purpose. It would also mean it would be hard to 'test' because you might get different things on different orders, it's not that the entire amazon supply is counterfeit, but that counterfeit stuff is in there somehow.
Yes, it's called inventory commingling, there are plenty explanations online. The TL;DR is that if two sellers claim to have the same item, amazon will ship the item from the closest warehouse rather than from the seller you bought from.
Yeah, I guess that doesn't mean anything but marketing, it still all comes from the same place.
The OP article doesn't discuss this, but it seems to me a likely explanation for someone getting crap levi's ordered on amazon?
I doubt the jeans the author is buying from Amazon are genuine product, maybe just really good knockoffs.
Levi’s sources its fabric from dozens of mills across the world, from luxury
supplier Candiani in Italy to sites in India, Bangladesh, Mexico, and Turkey.
The six pairs I tested were manufactured in three places: Cambodia, Macau,
and Mexico. The company’s supply chain is vast, and to some extent, it makes
sense that jeans made to the same specifications from different mills, dye
facilities, and factories would result in different products.
0. https://www.seriouseats.com/coke-vs-mexican-cokeSucrose in cane sugar decomposes to glucose and fructose via hydrolysis. With an acidic bottle of coke, a week after bottling nearly all of it is converted. The ratio of glucose and fructose is 50/50 from sucrose, with high fructose corn syrup it's a 55/42 ratio.
Assert different and equally genuine:
a Coke
cane sugar
from Mexico
a Coke
corn syrup
from USI had honestly thought this was my imagination of years of using them, but ran into more than one person shopping for jeans that randomly brought this up. I guess Levis super fans can spot each other.
A friend of mine worked in construction and said paint from a retail store was thicker and better, compared to the "same paint" from home depot. I think it might be the same paint, with a special "home depot" sku for paint that is more watery or somehow made at lower cost.
Here's an (archived) article talking about name brands and walmart:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050101092353/http://www.fastco...
Personally, I have found amazon with name brands to be hit or miss. It seems you might get a name brand through an intermediary (like a retail store) when the name brand won't sell through amazon itself.
I switched to All American Clothing AA101s and Duluth Trading Ballroom relaxed denim (not flex). The Duluths are durable, look like denim should, fit consistently, are triple stitched and gusseted, and sell for only $60. And gladly, neither of these jeans contains any elastic.
That is to say, Amazon under that coat of paint is probably worse.
Since WalMart has so much leverage in negotiations, they get to essentially name their price for goods.
Which causes manufacturers to make special WalMart versions of their items.
In 1962, Avis was in search of a new advertising campaign. Since its
inception, the car rental company had trailed behind the market leader,
Hertz. So the ad agency Doyle Dane Bernbach decided to embrace Avis’
second-place status as a sneaky way to tout the brand’s customer service.
“When you’re only No. 2, you try harder,” went the new tagline. “Or else.”
https://slate.com/business/2013/08/hertz-vs-avis-advertising...Imagine meeting price points, within a range of supplied products.
I'm sure denim experts could expand on why some jeans still last and others wear out.