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Comment by eagerpace | Hacker News Reader

It says “only 20% more than energy efficient windows” but those “energy efficient windows” are usually 50% more than the average quality window. Higher quality triple pane windows exist, and they are a luxury for most homeowners. It’s great technology, but relatively few people build or upgrade their house with the long term consequences in mind for these things. There’s a reason you get a positive ROI when you fix up a kitchen or bathroom versus replacing windows which is typically viewed as maintenance. There needs to be incentives for these upgrades to be adopted by home builders.

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Triple pane windows are not that kind of luxury.

I live in a poor Eastern European country and this is the standard for new buildings.

Ah, but in North America, only double-pane windows are required. Triple-pane windows are considered necessary for noise abatement but are prohibitively expensive. There are government rebates for upgrading older homes from single to double-pane windows, but no third-pane increase in the rebate.

Yes, and to give an idea I replaced some windows in my house a couple years back. The double pane windows on the north side were about $100 to $150 per, while the triple pane windows on the south side were $900. The triple pane also had higher installation labor costs. It seemed ludicrous to me that it would be so much more expensive, but after calling around, that was very typical.

Why was labor more expensive?

Only thing I could imagine was extra hands to deal with the weight.

Don't they use machinery to carry the windows? Even double pane gets heavy. The windows of the sliding doors I've recently got replaced were like 200kg each.

It is exceptionally rare for a contractor to have equipment to move literally anything that takes less than four laborers to move by hand.

Not here in the Netherlands. By law anything heavier than 23kg should be carried by a machine. In principle one can carry something heavier, but then there needs to be a written plan etc.

It's very common to carry stuff with a small crane. If it needs to be carried to thd back of the house which is not accessible, they set up a bigger crane.

I bet y'all have comprehensive workers compensation coverage and good healthcare too. Half the contractors around here lie about carrying a personal injury policy and several I've worked for had a standing policy where if you fell off a roof, scaffold, or ladder it was understood that you were fired before you hit the ground.

Where I am, in British Columbia, the solution formoving even the biggest windows in single family homes is to use ten men and a boy.

I got extra thick glasses (12mm thick each instead of 6mm standard) for my argon filled double pane windows in the bedroom. The noise isolation is incredbly improved. It did cost only 15% more. This is Europe again.

Do you mean the spacing between the two panes of glass?

No no, the thickness of the glass panes.

12mm thick glass is pretty damn thick and is normally used for for table tops, glass walls and partitions, hearths, frameless balustrades at ground level, and kitchen worktops.

Here in Germany triple pane windows are very much a luxury.

Nonsense, they're pretty much standard for new buildings, too.

It's more expensive to replace old windows with triple-pane as most window frames aren't thick enough. But it's definitely not a luxury.

They are the standard, because historically Eastern European winters are several times harsher than anything in USA, with the exception of a few states bordering Canada.

So the ROI is way higher.

They're standard because energy is more expensive in Europe than in the US.

Properly priced externalities strike again?

Sure, if it helps you sleep. There is a good reason for you to consume less

Better isolation?

More like the lack of natural fuel that Europe is willing or able to use for itself.

Noticeable exception includes Norway with their gas fields, but it's not like Germany has huge swaths of oil ready to be used. Germany does have substantial coal, but it's been decreasing its use of it in exchange for alternatives it doesn't own the fuel for.

In other words, Europe pays more for energy because they have to import it. Importing it isn't factoring "externalities", as the extra money isn't going to anything except Russia or OPEC.

About half of the buildings in Australia still use single-pane windows.

I've met plenty of wealthy people that have the mindset "luxury = frivolous" -- while that may be true to some extent, for i.e. a brand name T-shirt very few people I meet regardless of income bracket understand much of anything about the built/manufactured world.

In most realms, thoughtfully paying more for something yields an economic win over the lifetime (i.e. in this case energy efficiency).

Also somewhat ironically most people (even frugal) have some intuitive appreciation of quality -- if you place fitting architectural windows and doors on a structure your guests will appreciate it at some level, even if they don't understand why -- but expending the mental effort to design in such things is beyond most people for whatever reason even if they can afford it.

Whether it translates into value capture depends on the demographic of buyer, there is a large uncanny valley of builders that will do the lipstick-on-a-pig thing for a flip or even highly priced spec homes but at some point architects prevail and the structure is well designed at the price point.

Unfortunately, right now the market is so tight you could put slop out and it would sell like hotcakes.

Many Australian jurisdictions require the energy efficiency rating to be included with the listing, which factors in things like double glazing.

Their value is absolutely recognised as something greater than maintenance in this market.

Buyers absolutely care about energy efficiency and insulation from noise, and neither can be addressed fully without upgraded windows. It's one of the first things experienced homebuyers should look at -- if the windows are 1980's single pane, I'd expect to spend least $20k in window replacement parts + labor for a large house on top of the house price.

It's one of the first things buyers should look at. But they don't. They check out the kitchen cabinets, bathroom fixtures, and lovely floors and wall finishing.

School district.

How to ruin a real estate agent's day: arrive at your showing appointment wearing a tyvek bunny suit and headlamp and immediately demand access to the crawlspace.

The thing is, is 20k really that significant when compared to the price of a large house?

For many people yes, because that 20k isn't being added to the mortgage, so it isn't easily financed over a long period of time with low interest. These days, many people are stretched to meet the minimum down payment and won't have 20k extra to throw at a problem like this.

Redraw facilities are available in most countries? Refinancing etc? Genuinely curious.

For example (in Australia), my mate recently spent $40k, drawn out of his mortgage on solar panels, battery, double glaze windows, heat pump heating and cooling, gas stove to induction, gas hot water to heat pump and is currently investigating drawing more to upgrade roof insulation.

How can you refinance when you just bought the house? There is no equity for you to tap into, and if there was, you now even have a highly monthly payment.

Housing prices have to decrease first if you want people to be able make these decisions. That means we need a deflationary economy through increased production, so more people can be able to afford the enhanced productivity.

It is once you've maxed out what you can borrow and are now barely able to pay the mortgage and food.

20k here, 20k there, and pretty soon you’re talking about real money. You don’t save much money building a house by cheaping out on any one thing, but it adds up pretty fast.

That said, we have very nice triple-pane German windows in the house we’re currently building, and both the thermal performance and the finish quality are _wildly_ better than American window products. It’s just a whole different category of thing.

My brother bought a house that has triple pane windows and they are really nice. They block almost all sound and feel noticeably less cold in winter.

After over a decade in my home in a sunny area, I wish I would have replaced the windows with energy efficient ones when I first moved in. Just the savings on power over the past 10 years would have made them worth it. I'm pretty sure I'd have at least broken even by now.

All this to say, if I were building a new home, I would make it as energy efficient as possible as soon as possible. In my mind, it would be an investment, not maintenance.

> when I first moved in

I think many people fall into this trap.

When you first move in, there is always too much going on. Buying/Selling, moving, getting accustomed to the house, area, etc.

But it is the perfect time to redo things in the empty, unused house.

Put in a new electric panel. Add ethernet, or outlets, or rewire all the rooms. redo the shower, kitchen, laundry, etc insulate the attic. Change out the garage door opener.

or redo the windows.

The minute you move in all of this becomes measurably harder.

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