I can only hope at the end of the day their data doesn't end up in the wrong hands. It is their most valuable asset, and this is a way bigger deal than it seems.
I can only hope at the end of the day their data doesn't end up in the wrong hands. It is their most valuable asset, and this is a way bigger deal than it seems.
Most peoples genomes are boring and at best sway the predisposition for disease by a modest degree. Exposing infidelity is honestly the best I can come up with.
How much of lifestyle do you think is determined by genetics, if any, and how much of that link do we currently understand?
I feel the concern around genetic data privacy has normally been the risk of unknown future stuff, rather than any current known vectors. I'm not saying it's a legitimate fear, but I don't know if it's one that is placated with "we can't currently do anything bad".
I do think over time we will get a clearer picture of risk predisposition based on your entire genetic profile. However, I believe that genetic predisposion will remain a relatively small contributor for most disease states.
I agree that genetic predisposition will remain a small contributor for most disease states. However, I (an idiot who has no authority or experience with anything relating to genetics) feel we're going to learn a lot about how our genetics indirectly influence our behaviour and decision making though.
I think it'll be a boring dystopia: the biggest problem will be that the more complex, distant relationships between genetics and life outcomes are discovered, the more opportunities the bodies responsible for health will have to say "well we have to protect ourselves from the uncertainty, and that's going to cost you/be profitable for us".
https://www.healthcare.gov/how-plans-set-your-premiums/
All the other types of insurance (life/disability/etc) are free to ask you to provide DNA if they think it would be useful for underwriting. The fact that they do not means the DNA is not providing enough signal to be worth considering in the underwriting process.
But if you were able to somehow combine the information with the medical history of people, then you could use the data for research, and come up with some DL model maybe.
I’ve done some of these saliva samples and I’ve seen the freak outs about what happens if “they” get my genome. But I cannot for the life of me figure out what they would do with it maliciously? It’s not like it can be used to sign up for a credit card or whatever.
So once the ‘’’bad guys’’’ purchase the 23andme database, the story is complete! They can then frame our protagonist…
im just afraid of the unknown. now its useless but how about after another 5/10 years?
When I first heard about them and similar services, the potential for abuse was the first thing that came to my mind. I am not paranoid in any way and those were easy times compared to now. Still, I prefer not knowing my ancestry than this.
And ancestry for Europeans is not such a hot topic, you just need to look at a bit of history of continent and its civilizations and get the idea.
(but I get your point and I agree)
Then we learn about the perils of "majority rules" setups, of lobbying, of trying to evaluate thousands of different decisions across hundreds or thousands of legislators, etc. and it becomes a lot less simple.
The outcome for this person is not great :-)
I don't think they would care much for scientific validity in this case. It won't matter to them if the methods used are reliable. All they'll get is appraisal from mainstream media for their revolutionary approach, further ingraining social darwinism.
the method of being a fortune-teller? I don't see how that would ever be reliable unless we figure out voodoo kinds of tricks attacking the nervous system.
In the case of PRS assessment where it's already an established discipline, and not at all as unreliable as fortune-telling, it wouldn't be so hard to weaponize it.
But there's a difference between forming a cult and trying to convince the minds en masse of something.
And ok, let's agree for the sake of it that it is like astrology. Astrology is unnervingly popular, there are columns of big newspapers HN reveres dedicated to zodiac signs.
A cult consisted of people buying into something very close to eugenics masked as science doesn't sound it would have trouble gaining mainstream appeal in today's American society.
In fact, there's a great example of such discipline having already gained significant traction, even on this website, and it is none other than the field of evolutionary psychology. This field has provided close to zero replicable hypotheses yet it has been successfully weaponized into justifying prejudice and antisocial behavior, especially in the context of racial differences and dating.
Something like advertising reliable prediction of behaviors based on DNA would be cherry on top.
You mean like the art of advertisement, or more like what the extant system of social conditioning does in general?
How about scam emails that open by asking people about their family history of some disease with a genetic marker and promising some miracle treatment?
I can think of even worse outcomes depending on how policy on immigration and naturalization shifts
>depending on how policy on immigration and naturalization shifts
Birthright citizenship invalidates such profling, but even then: I don't think the government needs DNA to figure out identities of people in the database.
> It's not really a business that cares about targeted approaches.
It's called open rate and open rates are heavily driven by titles. Spam filters also use reputation to rank senders and open rates are one indicator of sender "quality". They definitely use targeted approaches if they can get their hands on datasets. > Birthright citizenship invalidates such profling
Only if you think that matters and the SCOTUS will uphold it. And of course, US isn't the only government; there are lots of other governments around the world.Even on a firesale, I doubt it would be cheap enough for the margins they work on. These aren't exactly large scale, sophsticated operations being worked with here.
>Only if you think that matters and the SCOTUS will uphold it.
Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think they will. If only because it's an absolute nightmare logistically trying to do it any other way. No country is going to accept a deportation flight of peopel who were not born on their land.
Or perhaps we have an underpopulation crisis decades later which does incentivize that. But that would solve the deportation issue in and of itself, right?
How about generic profiling by a future malicious government that only wants certain types of genomes to proceed to the next generation?
If you have a baby at home with a lay midwife, the health departments retain will hound you endlessly to get this done, although legally you can choose to decline as a parent. Barely anyone does, since most parents want to know if their newborn will have a serious genetic disorder that can be easily avoided by (for example) avoiding artificial sweeteners.
What's different today that would create a massive outcry that there wasn't 4 years ago?
You do that kind of stuff across enough axis and the people who ought to be leaving your supporters dangling from the overpass will be too marginalized and preoccupied to do much of anything.
You don't even need "high tech" to do this sort of stuff. Depostic regimes have been doing it for centuries.
Even I think I'm nowhere near unethical enough to maliciously use this dataset, but who would have thought that a social media platform where you scroll posts from your friends and family could be used as a political tool?
This is a trait of delusional people as well as those very deep into some "technocratic" ivory tower without any formed code of ethics, too.
For example, we now have cell-penetrating prime editor ribonucleoproteins, a derivation of the CRISPR system. These are essentially assembled molecular machines that can be loaded install almost any genetic mutation, such as tumor driver mutations. A picogram of this protein complex is potentially enough to riddle your body with cancer a couple of years after delivery.
But that still seems like a minute possibility.
I mean ancestry.com data van be used similarly, but genetical info is inobfuscable.
I wonder if some of those freaking out about the issue have a reason to be concerned.
On the other hand, once the information is out there, any aggrieved party will have plausible access to it, so it could be argued any statute of limitations would kick in.
Why would a company being sold mean that the data can be used for a purpose it previously couldn't?
I'm concerned with being put on a list of ashkenazi, and sold to people who work for my death on that basis.
https://www.wired.com/story/23andme-credential-stuffing-data...
2. There is incest in your family. Pay to find out.
3. We have found 4 significant markers of X diseases. Pay to find out. (Against FDA in claims of illness)
4. A lost family member was found in $location. Do you want to identify them and send money? (Likely faked, scam)
5. Surrogate or adopted: we know your birth parents. Pay to find out.
There's just a few unethical and/or illegal business opportunities for malicious actors. And that was just 5 off the top of my head.
If you wanted to be really evil, you combine it with other hacked/leaked/ransomed data sources and turn the screws.
If insurance companies use this information to inform coverage decisions, then it's a moot point right? Just because you and I (who am also in this field) understand the limitations of the models and the data, does not mean that powerful entities will not use it to do stupid things.
I reached out to a guy on 23andMe that was a DNA relative (2nd cousin) and said hi. Curious how we were related, I gave him some family names going several generations back, and asked if any of them rang a bell in his family history.
He responded quickly and said no, they did not.
Then a few weeks later I get another response. He said that one of the names had faintly rung a bell, and when he dug into it, it turned out that was the name of his mother's boss for much of her career as a secretary. His heart sank when he realized it. He and his siblings did genetic tests and confirmed that he, the youngest, was only a half-sibling. Both of the parents were deceased so there's no way to know what really happened.
After dropping that bomb in the poor guy's lap I stopped using the DNA Relatives feature.
The ideal solution would be for all data to be deleted before a sale. If anyone would want to buy 23andMe without the collected data then that's perfectly fine.
If their DNA test can recognise first cousins, then they've got a recognisable DNA profile for each user's parents, grandparents, children and so on.
Narrator: it ended up in the wrong hands
I doubt that specificity would be economically profitable.
The police did catch the Golden State Killer by scavenging a used coffee cup or somesuch, however.
The NIH occasionally updates this chart (note: Y axis is log scale)
https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/DNA-Sequen...
You can see there was a dramatic reduction in costs from 2008 to 2015, as several vendors released several substantial technology improvements, and a slow improvement from 2015 to now, but it's roughly flatlined, and there isn't much investment in developing new technologies now.
To the surprise of many, having enormous amounts of genomic data hasn't been the clear-cut improvement to human health, although there are some exceptions (especially cancer identification and personalized treatment). If we truly wanted to, we could spend capital and build out the sequencing, compute, and storage infrastructure to sequence every person on the planet at least once at 50X coverage, and store the data in perpetuity.
It's be much easiser to setup a DNA catfish from a Tinder date if someone is that determined to get a decent sample from you. If it's not targeted, a door-to-door salesman can collect dozens over a day for use.
There's so many social engineering tricks to take advanadge of that you'd paralyze yourself trying to keep your DNA to yourself. Better to just petition for regulation at that point.
And it required detectives to follow him around until he left whatever it was that was adequately isolated. It's a little different from a database of 7 million.
I think there are negative externalities if the data is sold to insurance firms — who can use the genomic information in litigation and policy rejections — or if the data is sold to some sort of powerful, pro-eugenics political organization. The insurance externalities likely can be mitigated with minimal legislation (protecting consumers in a similar manner to how we protect those with pre-existing conditions) and it is reasonable to assume pro-eugenics political groups wouldn’t be any less dangerous without this genomic data available.
Thus, I struggle to see how this data changing hands would be especially detrimental to society. One could contend a moral dilemma will arise from future developments in cloning, but would it? We already have clones in the form of identical twins, and their existence does not seem to create many, if any, especially problematic moral dilemmas. Maybe people are worried that society will start cloning celebrities and famous intellectuals instead of having babies more naturally — creating a world of designer babies where the diversity of thought and talent shrinks in a “tragedy of the commons”-esque dilemma — but I don’t think this is people’s issue because most people frame their qualms as more of a personal privacy issue. Moreover, designer babies issue I describe would likely become an issue with or without cloning.
There are issues that come to mind regarding genomics in commerce — such as the ethics and market incentives of patenting certain genomic patterns — but again I don’t see how this 23andMe data changing hands make this issue any more pressing than before.
On the other hand, my instinct (which I have learned to never blindly trust) is that making the data more widely available may make it cheaper and easier for researchers to make impactful discoveries. Therefore, my biggest worry with the change of ownership is that the new owners may keep the data behind a bigger wall.