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Comment by fsh | Hacker News Reader

It would be interesting to compare the accident statistics with European climbing gyms where belay tests are not common.

The coach in the video has some of the worst belay technique I have ever seen. Unfortunately, this is somewhat common among older climbers who learned using the first generation Grigri in the 90s. Petzl's recommended technique back then is very safe (essentially using the Grigri like an ATC), but does not allow giving slack quickly. This made it completely useless for any kind of ambitious sports climbing, and people started coming up with often extremely dangerous workarounds. Petzl has upgraded their recommendations a long time ago, but some people are resistant to change ("it never failed for me"...) Hopefully this video can convince at least some of them to finally adopt the proper technique.

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I thought it was interesting when I looked up US gyms that they require a belay test.

In Austria, the gyms I went to you just had to sign a form that you know how to climb top-rope, lead, and how to belay.

The US is extremely sue happy - US courts will often not recognize the ‘of course it’s obviously dangerous’ defense without extensive warning in writing - and even then, there is a significant amount of due diligence that needs to happen.

Most of the rest of the world goes ‘meh, don’t be so obviously dumb then’ and kicks the lawsuits out.

>The US is extremely sue happy - US courts will often not recognize the ‘of course it’s obviously dangerous’ defense without extensive warning in writing - and even then, there is a significant amount of due diligence that needs to happen.

What does that have to do with US gyms requiring belay tests, which is a bunch of steps that doesn't involve "extensive warning in writing".

Insurance.

Which requires due diligence.

Which means there is some guarantee that people belaying at the facility meet some basic standard of skill, so that people are not being dropped all the time and then turning around and suing the facility for negligent supervision/creating a dangerous environment.

Because they have evidence "in writing" that everyone at the gym had to pass a test that proves they know how to properly and securely belay a climber. In the event that there is an accident, the liability falls completely on the belayer and/or the climber and not the gym itself for allowing someone to participate in something that is "obviously dangerous" without demonstrating they have the ability to do it properly.

> What does that have to do with US gyms requiring belay tests, which is a bunch of steps that doesn't involve "extensive warning in writing".

It lowers insurance bills. If you don't let anyone climb without having done a belay test and putting that paper in a cabinet for 10+ years, then you can get cheaper insurance.

It's the same reason why some gun ranges won't let random people in without joining up and going through a safety intro thing - cheaper insurance.

What U.S. courts will look for is an industry standard for safety, even if implicit, and then see if you are meeting or exceeding that standard.

In the U.S., for climbing gyms, part of the standard is a belay test. In the article, Mayfield talks about trying to get the industry self-regulating before the government steps in. This is basically how that works: industry founders or leaders establish some procedures for safety, prove them out over time, then insurance companies implicitly adopt them and everyone else follows.

In Norway there is a lead climbing certification. You attend and pass a weekend course including a final test, then you get a card. In order to be allowed to belay/lead climb in a gym you have to present this card. You can bring friends and let them top rope without the card, at least in some gyms, but the belayer needs to have the card. I think you can also climb on autobelay without the card.

I have climbed in many gyms in Norway without this card. YMMV. But tbh there is so much good climbing around Oslo with a variety of rock as well. I don’t know why I ever climbed in a gym when I lived there.

I’m not sure why people are making a big deal of it. At my gym it took maybe 3 minutes. You tie a knot and show you know how to take up slack. And it only needs to be done once.

There is a second test for lead but most people take a class and get the lead card during the class.

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