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Comment by eternityforest | Hacker News Reader

I don't understand why there's no startups making open source modular electronics.

A collection of maybe 50 well chosen modules could handle at least part of pretty much everything, while allowing for upgrades as tech improves.

A microwave and a dishwasher and a dryer could all use the same controller and the same display module. A desk lamp and a flashlight could use the same LED and driver.

The current modular systems are educational or hobbyist oriented, or they try to do stuff that crosses high bandwidth links and needs lots of pins, but there's not reason we can't have standard LED drivers and other simple stuff like that.

The whole range of modules would probably be pretty cheap, it's just a matter of convincing everyone to use them, which I guess is why nobody does it.

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"I don't understand why there's no startups making open source modular electronics."

I would love to do exactly that, but so far I have not found any way how I could do that and still have a regular salary. Of course, I could do it for free as a generous gift to Chinese factories who will then produce things and flood Amazon with it ... but they won't reciprocate and donate back to the Open Source project. The OS project will quickly stagnate and future development stops.

The fix is that the Open Source project needs to sell hardware, or else there's no revenue to fund further development. And that means you now also need FCC and CE certification. And you need patents. Or else, Chinese factories will flood Amazon with your design. (but without paying for FCC/CE)

But now that you can successfully sell hardware to fund future development and you can fend off Chinese clones, your project is not really "open" anymore. It's kind of like an OEM module that is "source available". Like the Adafruit kits that you can order from Amazon/Arrow.

“As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously,”

Who are you quoting?

Are you aware of https://m5stack.com/ & https://github.com/m5stack and where would you put them, regarding the topic?

one way to put them would be on a list of PRC funded startups, for instance. also I have no idea whether you worked with their hardware before and at which level; I have, and their concept of "open" source HW is very different from what OP is talking about

They are a Chinese hardware manufacturer. The firmware source code appears to be open and on GitHub, but the hardware is fully closed. Accordingly, they are not "Open Source Hardware". They are not even "Source Available" on the hardware side.

It's because you would need open source ICs for that, and that'd a whole complex multinational tool chain.

The modules you speak of exist, they're ICs. Most electronics now are just ICs and traces on a board. The real challenge is the IC tool chain is very complex and very not open.

It would do no good to have open source modules that are just traces and then a bunch of closed source ICs. This is what Sparkfun, adafruit, etc. do. It's great for engineers and hobbiests but it doesn't get to the root of the value you propose.

The real value is in the ICs, those are the magic modules you speak of that need to be open source.

Getting that to happen is a whole thing. Like getting ExxonMobil to share their oil rig designs.

I think that open-source modules are valuable even without open-source ICs. At least for may classes of genetic IC/modules there are many vendors of an IC, so one could have multi-source for the IC, to reduce reliance on a single vendor/source.

It is becoming more and more feasible to do things software-defined, with a generic microcontroller being the core IC. I would love to see some projects for DC/DC power converters for example around a microcontroller with open software. This is a bit tricky because it needs to be safe, but in theory doable. Also need to be EMC compatible, which will require a lot of testing. Generally going beyond hobbyist requires much better QA than what most current open source hardware projects are willing/capable to do. Environmental testing, EMC testing, regulatory compliance, etc. Some exceptions might be vendors like Olimex.

For stuff like this maybe https://colognechip.com/programmable-logic/gatemate/ would suffice?

edit: Hrrm. Actually that seems a little bit overblown. Seems like they've upped their stuff. I just remembered them from a few years ago, when they had much smaller things on offer. Or misremember them for something else, were you could use them as something like 74xx replacement, with emerging support for open toolchains.

But still, interesting. So I won't erase this ;>

Closed source ICs are currently pretty cheap, reliable, and there's so many of them that if one became unavailable, a module could be redesigned to use another (Losing firmware compatibility if you had to switch to a new MCU, but keeping hardware compatibility).

Why would a startup do that? Hardware is low-margin difficult, capital intensive, long sales cycles, long rampups until revenue, volume sales are very trust-based (hard to get in when not established), expensive recalls, product compliance, etc. In addition the trend for the last 30 years of electronics is integration, completely opposite of modularization. I am very pro open source hardware and software (and contribute to both) - but I find it completely understandable that there are few startups/companies in this space.

^ This answer outlines all the issues perfectly.

> A microwave and a dishwasher and a dryer could all use the same controller and the same display module.

The real question is do we even need displays for those? A few buttons and a knob is all we need

A display goes a long way when troubleshooting, instead of having to dig out the manual and figure out what the specific combination of blinking LEDs is supposed to mean.

A phone app can translate that. Yes, dependence on phone etc., but the company I work for is doing that for industrial automation components, and users seem happy.

Well the "ER07" on my wash machine display isn’t very informative neither.

OTOH ~10 leds with logos on the 25yo water heating machine works almost perfectly to inform be the current state (auto/manual) and low/high pressure, restart required and maintenance required.

The temperature is displayed with a needle dial.

It does when you look at the code definitions in the service manual just inside the chassis. And then you can enter the diagnostics mode and have it do more self tests and report back exactly what's going on.

I’d love to try that diagnostic mode but never eared of something like that. My machine is a recent Samsung (EU).

https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00092622/?msock...

They also document the error codes:

https://www.samsung.com/us/support/troubleshoot/TSG10000997/...

But as mentioned most big appliances usually have a small service manual tucked inside the chassis somewhere. Those will have these instructions and the table to decipher the error codes, along with some basic troubleshooting steps. It might also include official part numbers to replace components which might have failed. This is often true for washing machines, dryers, fridges, dishwashers, stuff like that.

On my GE units it even stores recent codes in case it experienced multiple different issues while running. You can cycle through the history in the maintenance mode.

I do agree though, in the end you still probably need the table to decipher the error codes.

That’s great thanks! Your post is in my favorites for future references.

Glad I could be helpful. It's good to empower people to solve their own problems and keep things working instead of replacing at the first sign of trouble. Always be open to opening up an appliance and looking for a service manual, they're often zip tied somewhere in there.

Computerized gadgets should help us diagnose and fix issues, not hinder! Good luck on your future wrenching on your own stuff :)

Could have Blutooth instead and cast it to your smartphone/watch, or whatever.

Think wireless JTAG for dummies/consumers.

Wireless JTAG both sounds incredibly awesome and terrifying at the same time.

So much security assumes those pins will never see headers!

Why not? Considering how cheap they are (we are talking about less than 10 dollars for 4-6 inch display with relatively high resolution and controller for this display).

Something "being cheap" isn't really a reason to add it to a product.

Businesses don't care about opensource, and they already use standard electronics, just not modular, because modules are expensive.

E.g. many Haier/Candy mostly use esp32 microcontrollers, led displays don't even need modules, lcd displays use usually one of few standards, etc.

A cheap microwave costs 50euros, a washing machine 200, that's retail price with a 5year warranty, sometimes even with delivery, there is no place for modules that noone will actually use.

What's the business model?

I could, for example, design and make an open source controller board suitable for a microwave oven. But how do I sell microwave ovens competing on price with people who have been building microwave ovens for decades and have basically perfected the art?

How do I stop companies in China from taking my controller design and selling it at half the price?

"I don't understand why there's no startups making open source modular electronics." There is, maybe it is not a startup per se. In Shenzhen there is 500 companies that will produce whatever you need in whatever amounts you need, could be 10, 100, 10 000 000.

I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but I'd like to see a product family that can be configured to replace controller boards on a wide family of appliances. For instance, a generic compressor/thermostat controller that will work as a replacement on ALL models of refrigerator for the past 20 years. It would work based on jumper settings or loops that you add/cut that would be qualified and tested for each model. It's working with power levels that could burn your house down, so safety would need to be paramount. But basically all appliances do the same thing, just at different voltage and current levels. There should be a market for a common replacement set.

Dryers and microwave ovens do not require electronics. LED lamps with a wall wart that unplugs already exist.

I'd imagine there are. In Shenzhen.

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