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Comment by JohnFen | Hacker News Reader

Just to be clear about my bias: I think that the presidential pardon power is an affront to the idea of rule of law and shouldn't exist, no matter who the president is.

This is an interesting situation. If Trump can just make shit up and declare a previous president's pardons to be void, then a future president can do the same with Trump's pardons. This might, in fact, be a back door method of effectively neutralizing the presidential pardon.

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Pardons have been an integral part of English Common Law for over 1,000 years. The Framers of the Constitution didn't invent the concept out of thin air; they drew on a long-standing tradition of clemency to ensure justice and mercy within the legal system.

Are pre-emptive blanket pardons traditional? I can see how Trump or some future president might abuse that, especially if autopen is allowed so that thousands or even tens of thousands can be pardoned at once to prevent subsequent political lawfare.

Jimmy Carter issued a pre-emptive blanket pardon for the Vietnam War draft evaders, so precedence has been set.

Yes, I'm aware of the history. That history, in my mind, only underscores that the presidential pardon is a holdover of monarchical power that should have no role in a governmental system that is supposed to be based on the rule of law.

> to ensure justice and mercy within the legal system.

But it does no such thing. All it does is to make the ultimate arbiter of what counts as "justice" a single person. That is not a good thing and is not conducive to justice.

Pardons exists also in Civil Law.

A _personal_ pardon power is a bit of an oddity these days, though; by the 19th century it was dead in the UK, say (George VI _attempted_ to use it, but at that point it was essentially a constitutional crisis, and he backed down).

I’m not sure it neutralizes it for everyone. Dem staffers have mentioned how Biden was mentally declining for the last few years and that it was denied and covered up by the party leaders. There have been allegations that a few people close to him have basically run the last administration by using the auto pen instead of him. I’m not sure if that can ever be proven. But my point is I think this tactic of undoing pardons may be a thing specific to Biden’s situation.

Trump "declared" them invalid "because of the fact that they were done by Autopen", which isn't specific to the pardons or to Biden at all.

> I think this tactic of undoing pardons may be a thing specific to Biden’s situation.

Why do you think this? It doesn't matter what the current administration thinks. If it sets the legal precedent that it can undo pardons by prior administrations based on little more than what the president thinks, then that power is also available to be used by future administrations based on their own opinions as well.

I understand your point around precedent. My point is that Trump is not going to do something that removes the power of pardon from himself. I think the way they’re going to approach this is to frame it as a Biden specific problem with the pardons. It may end up requiring a court process, but it is possible that they will bring evidence forward to show that Biden was not really making these pardon decisions himself.

> it is possible that they will bring evidence forward to show that Biden was not really making these pardon decisions himself.

I seriously doubt this. If they had such evidence, they would have already presented it publicly for political purposes.

I actually believe that the not signing thing is a much bigger deal. What then becomes the job description if you cant be bothered to sign? A few steps further you can legitimately deny ever seeing a document. That it bears your rubber stamp means nothing, anyone could have done that.

>when a future president can do the same with Trump's pardons.

the precedent set is the cancellation of autopen'd CNC'd signatures used during a presidency where many think the leader was mentally MIA.

it's troublesome to consider a cabinet that short-circuited the president via CNC'd autopen signatures, even if you're against the Trump presidency.

Trump just makes stuff up.

What is troublesome is to grace anything Trump says with any measure of validity. He's always just trying to sow doubt on anyone or anything who doesn't support him.

Then I guess this would mean we have to go back and review all - what - presidential proclamations, laws, executive orders done by autopen and void them?

I mean, the next president could just claim that Trump’s hands were too small for proper signing or something; the details really hardly matter. It’s a complete nonsense anyway; if it stands up, then the US has itself a constitutional crisis.

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