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Comment by alpine | Hacker News Reader

I also think it is a healthy sign that Indian democracy is working well in at least some respects. Their great rival China is apparently kidnapping some children who show signs of athletic potential and subjecting them to a life of intense training for a chance at an Olympic medal to promote the greatness of the mother country. India clearly hasn't chosen this route despite the pressure there must be to match China in all fields.

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I smell jealousy here. Although it's a fact that China spent a great sum of money and effort training their athletes and the children usually go though excess training(well, like Russia, Korea etc) , i don't think the athletes are being "kidnapped" or forced to become athletes. Many of the young athletes came from very poor family and this is a way to improve their lives (including their families and even the whole village). In fact, it's a privilege to be chosen.

I read this story today which makes it sound like, at least in this one case, the truth may be closer to alpine's take.

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/ostler/article/Missy-Franklin-s...

"Chinese 16-year-old Ye Shiwen astounded everyone with her finishing kick in the 400 IM. London's Daily Mail newspaper sent a reporter to Ye's hometown to interview her parents.

They told of their only child being selected at age 6 to be schooled in an elite full-time swim program. At 11 she turned "pro" and entered what was basically a work camp for kiddie phenoms, one of 20 selected from a pool of 20,000 candidates. Between ages 11 to 14, Ye was allowed one brief visit with her parents each week and one brief phone call home, many of them very tearful.

The parents talked of missing their daughter terribly, but Ye's mom said, "In the West, you pay a coach to turn you into an athlete. But in China, the state pays, so you have to sacrifice something in return.""

Right. This is all true. I'm not supporting their system. But the parents are not forced. They have a choice. They choose to sacrifice something in return for a good economic life and future for themselves and their children. There are tens of millions of chinese workers who left their village or town to work at big cities. Many of them only see their children once or less per year. In comparison, the chosen athletes life is so much better. Sure, china should definitely improve their system but I don't think it's fair to demonize them when it's simply not true.

That's the only option those parents have.

If you are very poor and the party offers your kids education, food and a career. I doubt if any parent wouldn't let go their kids.

Its basically like putting up your kid for adoption. People do that when they have no way out. If they had absolutely any other option, trust me they would keep their kids with them.

Well, they don't have another choice, and so this is a good option. It's better than what happens in India, with almost half the child population suffering from malnutrition - it's even worse in India than in sub-Saharan Africa, which is saying something.

maxwin, it's a bit of a stretch to say the parents have a choice. Consider this:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01/20/145360447/the-secr...

So it was 1978 and a lot of 'capitalism' has happened since, but the Party is still in charge.

Are you kidding me? It's an article about China in it's darkest years. They definitely have done worse things like staving millions of lives due to poor governance. I am talking about the new China. The 21 century China. And the generations of athletes born after 1980s or 1990s (which are the majority of the current chinese athletes). If you're talking about the old generation living under communist rule, sure, there were worse things than kidnapping.

The Party is still in charge. What is there not to get with this argument? It is also debatable that China has had its darkest years. One could argue that with the Party now having access to technology only dreamt of by totalitarian regimes 30 years ago, the darkest years are now.

I'm not so sure. I think the vast majority would prefer Hu Jintao over Mao Zedong.

Nowhere in the article does it say that the child was kidnapped or otherwise taken from her parents without consent. At best you can infer that the parents are being shut up by the government, but then that means you've already decided what the truth is.

EDIT: Basically what you see theorique implying below.

Should also point that the overall "Chinese Miracle" was partly fueled by vast migrations of poorer workers from inland areas to the coast to work. They typically have to leave their children/family in their villages, and get to see them once a year at Chinese New Year. This in no way makes the Chinese athletic development system 'right', and I don't mean to trivialize the family's blight, but I think it's important to have -some- context.

Being neither Indian, nor Chinese, jealously doesn't come into it.

Children are being kidnapped. Believe me, if the local Party official came to a house in the West and said 'we're taking your child to athletic school, aren't you happy!' it would be considered kidnap.

They are certainly kicking a lot of countries ass in terms of winning gold metals. When chinese didn't have the will or money to train their athletes, the West called them "sick man of Asia". Now they are kicking ass, then they are being accused of kidnapping children. I agree that their system needs to be improved. But I think it's pretty ignorant and inaccurate to accuse them of kidnapping. The children only need to underperform for a short while if they are unwilling and they will soon be sent back to their families. (Which is a real probelm: the athletes at the top earn all the fame and money, and thousands of others just wasted their lives training and getting nothing). But saying that they kidnap is ridiculous.

So if the local Party official came to your house and said 'we're taking your child to athletic school, aren't you happy!' what would you call it?

I suppose you could whisper in the child's ear 'remember to under perform when you want to come back'.

Now that is ridiculous.

"Please. It's so ugly to call this kidnapping. It's an enormous privilege to have your child participate in national athletics. Don't you want that opportunity for her? There are families who would kill for this chance.

Think of the great shame you would bring on your family and your entire village to know that your family rejected the opportunity to have your child participate in national athletics. Also, you have a nice house and a nice family here and it would be a real shame if some kind of terrible accident happened to them.

Ah, you've changed your mind about your youngest daughter participating. Excellent. She will bring honor and glory upon our great nation."

'Forced' is relative, but in http://youtu.be/qij0QULBBdk, the kids do not look like they feel privileged.

Indian democracy is anything but working well. Until the IOC forced the IOA (Indian Olympic Association) to fire him, the IOA's president was doing his job while imprisoned for embezzling an enormous amount of money during the construction process for the 2010 Commonwealth Games, held in New Delhi. Now that Kalmadi has been released due to "insufficient evidence", he's been reappointed as the president of the IOA.

India might be a democracy in name, but rule of law is very poorly enforced.

Yes, that the impression I have as well, corruption being pretty much woven into the fabric of life.

Irrespective of whether your story about China is true or not, this is not an indicative of healthy democracy. If anything, its an indicative of unhealthy governance.

I would have thought India aping China in the appropriation of youngsters to boost their medal count at the Olympics would be indicative of an unhealthy democracy, but whatever.

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