"Wait, not like that": Free and open access in the age of generative AI
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citationneeded.news
I've licensed multiple repositories under MIT, written under CC-BY, and published games under ORC. All of those licenses require attribution, something that AI, for example, explicitly ignores. In those situations "Wait, no, not like that" isn't "I didn't expect you'd use it this way" it's "you weren't authorized to use it this way."
From what little I understand of LLMs, the weight network developed by training on a large collection of inputs is similar to human knowledge in that some things will be clearly derived (at least in part) from a limited number of inputs but others might have no clear contributor density. If I wrote a human "superiority" science fiction story, I could be fairly confident that Timothy Zahn and Gordon R. Dickson "contributed"; however, this contribution would not be considered enough to violate copyright and require licensing. Some LLM outputs clearly violate copyright (e.g., near verbatim quotation of significant length), but other outputs seem to be more broadly derived.
If the law treats LLMs like humans ("fairly"), then broad derivation would not seem to violate copyright. This seems to lead toward "AI rights". I cannot imagine how concepts of just compensation and healthy/safe working conditions would apply to an AI. Can a corporation own a computer system than embodies an AI or is that slavery?
If the law makes special exceptions for LLMs, e.g., adjusting copyright such that fair use and natural learning only apply to human persons, then licensing would be required for training. However, attribution licenses seem to have the above-mentioned loophole. (That this loophole is not exploited may be laziness or concern about admitting that following the license is required — which makes less openly licensed/unlicensed works poisonous.)
If the purpose of copyright is to "promote the useful arts", then the law should reflect that purpose. Demotivating human creators and the sharing of their works seems destructive to that purpose, but LLMs are also enabling some creativity. Law should also incorporate general concepts such as equality under the law. LLMs also seem to have the potential for power concentration, which is also a concern for just laws.
Perhaps I am insufficiently educated on the tradeoffs to see an obvious solution, but this seems to me like a difficult problem.
If it can be shown multiple people independently created something, the artifact is not the pattern itself--but the pattern is recognized because of so many similar implementations.
LLMs create (or re-create) and derive idioms of things, based on weights which are idioms themselves (probabilistic patterns). Then we can only say AI may understand patterns of color theory, or idiomatic execution (art style)--but that is all.
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1. They are willful, purposeful creatures who possess selves.
2. They interpret their behavior and act on the basis of their interpretations.
3. They interpret their own self-images.
4. They interpret the behavior of others to obtain a view of themselves, others, and objects.
5. They are capable of initiating behavior so as to affect the view of others have of them and that they have of themselves.
6. They are capable of initiating behavior to affect the behavior of others toward them.
7. Any meaning that children attach to themselves, others, and objects varies with respect to the physical, social, and temporal settings in which they find themselves.
8. Children can move from one social world to another and act appropriately in each world.
-- The Private Worlds of Dying Children (1978)
People talking about licenses like they have some courtroom legitimacy is hilarious. Licenses are like patents, they are weapons of the large corporation to be used against other large corporations or the people.
Of course you can try to litigate for ten years against a big corporation with lawyers on retainer, good luck. Might even get an "Erin Brockovich" movie script out of it, but we're seeing the rule of law and legitimacy of the courts degrade rapidly and become increasingly corrupt, once over the years, but now by the day
If running your AI is incompatible with respecting copyright and intellectual property then you should not get to own a single bit of its output.
Isn't AI output not copyrightable already?
There's no cause to siphon all profit from this particular newcomer medium because it derives some benefit here and there.
The internet as an open resource has been a tremendous boon to society as a whole. AI, likewise, acts as a force multiplier on top of this knowledge. You can learn anything. But AI also depletes the resources on which it builds.
An obvious way to counteract this is for the AI companies to give back generously through monetary donations or, at the very least, attributions. But unfortunately we see exactly the opposite.
The article author is clearly assuming that, but I'm not sure whether it's even true to any meaningful extent. How many contributors to free/open content resources are even bothered that their work might end up being used for AI training?
Also, maybe AI firms should pay for the scanning and OCR text-extraction of existing paper-backed resources. There's a lot of, e.g. old academic research that's still not meaningfully available online, much of it is even free of copyright worldwide. If you care about ensuring that your AI's are adequately well-read, this is a bottleneck that might be especially easy to address.
Current frontier models couldn’t exist in this form or wouldn’t exist at all without people putting in the work of writing down what they knew for free. And the model creators not even paying lip service to this, and instead saying they will replace Wikipedia, is hubristic and a very clear example of the tragedy of the commons.
What model creators are saying this? It's very easy to put this assertion to the test btw: just pick your favorite Wiki article, ask a LLM to "improve" the writing, and check how much stuff it ends up rewriting in a confusing way, or even gets outright wrong. Compared to your average high-quality Wiki article, a LLM is just a very confused parrot.
They have access to _huge_ volumes of information—books, research papers, PhD dissertations, newsletters from experts, peer-reviewed articles. They're getting better every day at organizing it. Claude has a (beta) citations API, which forces the LLM to directly cite sources and use direct quotations.
They'll get better and better at managing translations—maybe not them translating, but them finding resources in other languages, using a translation tool, then pulling in that information.
Will they be perfect? No, but good lord is Wikipedia not either. Will they hallucinate, probably sometimes, but, again, the median Wikipedia author does not have a New Yorker fact checker at their side.
I think we overestimate how good humans are at this. And it's far easier to validate cited sources than it is to consume and craft the original writing.
People can pay a tiny bit extra for source attribution at present so there is no short-term issue.
StackOverflow’s response is a clear counterpoint.
If implementing a full game theory solution is challenging, a minimal viable approach could combine:
- Wikimedia's Enterprise API model for high-volume users - Technical measures to identify and throttle non-contributing scrapers - Public transparency reports on AI company usage and contributions - Industry certification program for "commons-friendly" AI development
This hybrid approach uses game theory principles to realign incentives while being practically implementable with current technologies and organizational structures.
an AI training on a source does not deplete the source in the digital realm. It's not like bits run out or rot.
The training potentially could remove a source of commercial revenue, such as advertising, which is only tangentially related to the knowledge/source. And it is not the commercial revenue which drove the initial development of said knowledge, even if said creator(s) of the knowledge got paid after the fact (let alone not paid - such as wikipedia editors).
Therefore, it's incorrect to associate tragedy of the commons to ai training draining the commons.
MIT is the "wait, no, not like that" license and GPL is a half-measure.
Non-commercial licenses are fine if you also provide a commercial option - who cares what the OSI thinks. (And you might want to look up who's a member of the OSI)
First rule of free software is any goal, including commercial ones.
> MIT is the "wait, no, not like that" license
I don't get this. Someone who releases their under MIT, GPL or AGPL allows selling a copy on amazon and could think "wait, no, not like that" regardless.
I think the reasonable stance is to (kindly, humanly) ask, that one doesn't do such or such thing even if it's legal.
Yeah and that's what we disagree with. :P If Creative Commons has NC licences for art, why shouldn't software? Apart from programmers being too meek to assert their rights.
And yes, the OSI is mostly hyperscalers, that's fairly commonly known. They aren't interested in protecting the commons the slightest.
Even the JSON licence ("don't be evil") and stuff like that are better than MIT and friends - gives enough of a headache for bigcorp lawyers to think twice before stealing your stuff.
You were at least consistent up until this point, but this phrasing runs directly counter to the rest of your thesis. It's not stealing to use software that you put out as FOSS to be used by anyone for any purpose. If you didn't intend to do that, that's on you to have picked a license that reflected your intentions and to accept the consequences of that choice (mostly likely less interest in using it from everyone, not just megacorps).
There's no moral imperative to respect terms of use that existed only in the head of the developer—on the contrary, it's an immoral bait-and-switch to release your code as FOSS and then throw a fit when someone uses it to make money.
However, let's not pretend that choosing a licence is a fully informed decision free of any kind of pressure. If you pick a non-OSI licence, that has social costs (as you said, less interest from other developers for example)
The problem is two-sided: both those companies exploiting the FOSS landscape and the participants in the FOSS landscape more concerning themselves with uploading the status quo than to try to do something about the problem.
P.S.: The OSI are not even sellouts - they mostly consist of exactly those corporations themselves. The FSF are much better but the FSF's philosophy was mostly informed by RMS not being able to fix his printer in the 80's.... times change, y'know? A philosophy/worldview which worked for the 80s and the 90s might not be appropriate for the 2020s.
Yes. People make a decision to choose from the FOSS licenses because being seen as FOSS is valuable to them. That comes with tradeoffs, and it's unethical to expect to receive the benefits but not the drawbacks of your chosen license.
> P.S.: The OSI are not even sellouts - they mostly consist of exactly those corporations themselves.
I know. I find the bellyaching about the "spirit of Open Source" to be pretty ironic given that Open Source exists to "dump the moralizing and confrontational attitude that had been associated with "free software" in the past and sell the idea strictly on the same pragmatic, business-case grounds that had motivated Netscape" [0].
> those companies exploiting the FOSS landscape
Exploiting how? What harm does $MEGACORP using a FOSS project do to the FOSS project? Does it hurt that it gives them more credibility? For there to be exploitation there has to be a quantifiable harm to the exploited victim—it has to be win-lose, not win-neutral or win-win. So where's the loss to the FOSS maintainers as victims?
[0] http://web.archive.org/web/20071115150105/https://opensource...
Also, why did you feel the need to create a throwaway for this comment?
I think TFA is onto something by pointing out that there are very real ways that some of the recent use of the commons falls into the realm of abuse that harms the commons. But most of the kinds of usage that has people giving up on FOSS doesn't actually fall into that category.
There's nothing to disagree about. Free software is a definition.
Now we can talk about whether this is desirable of course, but this is not a discussion to put under "if you care about free software", that would be contradictory.
> If Creative Commons has NC licences for art, why shouldn't software?
CC NC licenses are non-free. And I certainly think there are things under CC ND that shouldn't (not speaking about all art, especially art that's not meant to have derivatives - especially art that's the expression of very personal emotions or views - I'm not set on this and CC has another clause for this: ND).
> Even the JSON licence ("don't be evil")
Yeah, no thanks. That was painful. Evil wasn't even defined.
If you think something is evil, software license are not the right tools. Lobbying for the law to change and spreading the word is much more effective for this, broader, more universal, has the chance to be more impactful.
> The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). ... “Free software” does not mean “noncommercial.” On the contrary, a free program must be available for commercial use, commercial development, and commercial distribution. This policy is of fundamental importance—without this, free software could not achieve its aims.
You're welcome to come up with a different set of coherent rules for an ethical model of software development, but to avoid confusion it would be best to use a different label than "free software" so we don't overload the term with conflicting definitions.
[0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms
If it's MIT, the person who buys it ISN'T allowed to give away more copies for free if the seller doesn't want them to. MIT means SOMEONE ELSE can (for all practical purposes) copyright YOUR software, and all you get is your name in a notices.txt file.
> If it's GPL, or AGPL, someone can [...]. If it's MIT, the person who buys it ISN'T allowed to [...]
MIT gives strictly more rights to the user than GPL. If you can do something under the (A)GPL, you can definitely do so under MIT. In all cases, as someone who receives a copy, you are allowed to sell copies regardless. Under the (A)GPL, you will need to provide the sources on request as well.
> MIT means SOMEONE ELSE can (for all practical purposes) copyright YOUR software
You always keep the copyright on your code (unless there is a copyright assignment), regardless of the license.
MIT allows someone else to not share the source when redistributing some software under MIT or a derivative.
I give foobar to Alice under AGPL. Alice gives foobar to Bob, Carol, and Dave, under AGPL so I don't sue her.
I give barbaz to Alice. It's MIT. Alice gives barbaz to Bob, Carol and Dave under a proprietary license. I can't do anything about it, because I gave her that right.
Which scenario has more user freedom?
I guess the confusion stems from this phrasing:
> If it's MIT, the person who buys it ISN'T allowed to give away more copies for free if the seller doesn't want them to
I assume you meant:
> If it's MIT, a seller is allowed to relicense under a proprietary license and then the buyer isn't allowed to give away copies
I had understood the opposite.
You can use the thing for experimentation for free because why not.
You can use the thing in your free thing for free because you are giving back to the world.
If you want to use the thing in a non-free thing, you are no longer being altruistic so I won't either. You can use it, but the rule of "fuck you pay me" applies. I am not volunteering for a for-profit company. You're for-profit, so pay your workers.
To implement this principle, the strictest GPL you can find (currently AGPLv3 or even SSPL) works and is open-source compatible, but I think non-commercial licenses also work, provided you can also get a commercial one. They have a problem if the company that produced the software disappears. AGPL probably works better.
I think it's fine if Amazon hosts a modified version of a free thing, for money, if they release the source code to their modified version. All of their value is then coming from the hosting, not the modifications.
It depends on POV, user freedom or developer/publisher freedom. To make it easy to understand, I remember a quote from some book where a french and USAian were debating about what country is fmore free and slavery and the USAian says "We are more free since we are free to own slaves"
Under some versions of copyright laws and interpretations conceived before emergence of generative AI, this is either considered fair use and/or legally exempted as scientific research, because use of even copyrighted data were highly transformative; AI even capable of regurgitating dataset were previously unheard of.
This nature of generative types of AIs are controversial, but progress of discussions in that regard - whether it's to be ultimately upheld or not - had been moving at a glacial pace(as in slow).
For example, just yesterday someone posted "noam chomsky is a genocide denier" so I went internet sleuthing to see what they were talking about. I first asked google and then ended up on the "Bosnian genocide denial" wikipedia page. I read the argument and checked the sources and concluded that, maybe, someone could make that claim.
Today, in response to TFA, I asked deepseek and received a well-rounded and, IMHO, unbiased response to the same question which summarized the arguments from both sides. The only problem is they cite no sources so you just have to trust the response or do as I did yesterday and go to the google.
Personally, if someone makes an extraordinary claim I'm going to go digging to find out what they're talking about, if their argument is based on fact and if you can draw their conclusion from the facts. Take that ability away and we're just a bunch of sheep for the Silicon Valley Billionaires Club to fleece.