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Comment by ldjkfkdsjnv | Hacker News Reader

I'm an engineer at a large tech company. I am by all means considered a successful engineer. I am actively looking for a way to exit the field, and am assuming that in a few years my career options will be vastly diminished. I am worried about ageism, and can already feel it in my early 30s. Its certainly become more up or out

A friend of mine, with a STEM PhD, and 8+ years of experience between Amazon and Google was laid off, is struggling to find a job paying over 200k, they were making 500k previously. Obviously 150-200k is still decent money, but it really doesnt go far in major metro areas, and for someone with such a premium resume, is a bellwether of whats to come

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> is struggling to find a job

It's always a struggle to land leadership or niche top-seniority gigs. It doesn't matter how awesome you are. They're not commodified swap-in staff roles, and there are not a lot of them, and your friend is probably looking for a quality organization too (or leaders in shabby ones won't touch this resume).

Your friend is just encountering the reality that there will be a search phase after the end of any high-seniority professional job, plan for it.

No from the 2010-2022 period, this wasnt the case. You could find a ton of very high paying roles, or atleast get interviews for them. There is a serious vibe shift. Also, 500k isnt that senior

> 500k isnt that senior

You've defined the market as four companies (FAANG - 1) and roles representing <1% of their highest performers. Yes, they have roles and maybe even openings, but no reason to think there would be an immediate match for anyone but a superstar.

> Obviously 150-200k is still decent money, but it really doesnt go far in major metro areas, and for someone with such a premium resume, is a bellwether of whats to come

The problem here is that the dollar has devalued so far to the point where it is close to worthless, especially with rising house prices across the country.

This is why $200k - $500k seems to be "not enough" in the US due to its cost of living and at the same time it isn't sustainable for Amazon or Google to pay at that rate.

Really, this the hallmarks of a crash that is waiting to happen and it was never going to last.

Yeah I think the dollar has been completely decimated. There is nowhere to hide, assets are no longer ripping, but cost of living is higher than ever. For a family that wants to be upper middle class, 500k really is not that much, if you want to save and live comfortably/go on vacations, drive a nice car.

>For a family that wants to be upper middle class, 500k really is not that much, if you want to save and live comfortably/go on vacations, drive a nice car.

That might be true for Bay Area. What about other states, Arizona, Nevada, Nebraska, Montana etc. ?

I am not from US, but I don't get why tech companies can only have offices in Bay Area.

You just need to get out of your bubble.

The median household income is $80K. Those people aren’t homeless and starving

Reality tells me that a crash is still waiting to happen.

My negative opinion based on experience working with the stereotype that fits your friend is they are only valuable in a massive company. 8/10 phd holders I have worked with couldn’t actually do hands on work. So where do people who just want to think, talk and write about work without being able to actually ship provide value on the order of $250/hr?

Yeah im not saying anything about value of work output, just the change in the market

They'll become lawyers, as the lord intended them to be.

I understand that going to 200k after your whole standard of living has been built around 500k is pretty difficult, but objectively speaking: half of America is living in metro areas right? Most of them are managing without making nearly three times the median income.

Also: is America just vastly more expensive than Europe? Here in the Netherlands (one of the wealthiest nations in the world) even just 100k is aspirational for most higher paid jobs.

> Also: is America just vastly more expensive than Europe?

Yes.

In my family I am under employed and my wife is an elementary teacher. Health insurance for us costs $800 every month. A car is required and so is the gas to drive it. We have two 7 year old Toyotas and insurance on them is $100 a month.

It’s a lot more overhead and risk mitigation compared to the better nations like yours that care for their people.

People in the major cities practically live in their own society in America.

$200k is a huge amount of money in most of America based on geography.

In the major cities though it is not just the cost of living but the feeling of being wealthy is all relative to those around you. In the major cities there are people with huge amounts of wealth so $200k year is not going to feel wealthy at all. Of course, no one is actually just scraping by on white bread and ramen noodles making $200k unless they are terrible with money. More like you can only eat out X number of times a week instead of having a personal chef. The person making $200k also probably not much different in ability than the person with the personal chef and private jet so not only do you not feel wealthy but might even feel like you are getting shorted. Of course, if you did have the personal chef and private jet you would face the same problem but at a higher level.

This isnt really accurate. If you want to live in an upper middle class neighborhood, and save money, with kids, 200k is peanuts. Sorry, it is. Upper middle class needs both parents working at 200k, which itself is really a middle class existence.

What do you consider an “upper middle class lifestyle”. In 2020, I was living in the burbs of Atlanta in the good school system with a 3200 square foot house that I had built in 2016, one teenager in the house, three cars making less than $200K combined and we weren’t eating hot pockets everyday

>for someone with such a premium resume, is a bellwether of whats to come

That is true in US. In Europe having a PhD and working for Google and Amazon never meant being payed huge sums.

  > A friend of mine, with a STEM PhD, and 8+ years of experience between Amazon and Google was laid off, is struggling to find a job paying over 200k, they were making 500k previously.

That's insane.

This is why I have 10-12 years outgoings sitting in the bank.

I make way above market rates for my area currently, but I don't have to be worried about getting laid off.

And as my salary went up i made sure my life style didn't.

Tragic! Meanwhile those of us who do this because they "like tech" (read: it's the only thing I can or will do for a living) will continue to be happy scraping by on the insulting pay of.... (checks notes) $200k/year. You can't even afford to have your balls shaved and sucked every morning with that kind of pay! Even worse, how can you impress your wealthy parents, friends, friends' parents and romantic partners without a job that pays enough for the morning balls treatment? What's the point of getting a PhD when you have ball stubble? Dear lord, you might have to go find work in another field (adios vampire, you won't be missed here).

they could probably make more angel investing.

how so?

Honestly , I think people will misjudge me when I say this , but these reasons are the reason why I am frugal.

My economic condition can change drastically , it just depends on the market , how is your "friend" entitled to 150-200K ? Because of our "expectations" (Amazon , google are the best companies so "best" + phd , phd means you are in academia so more "smarter")

But our "expectations" are now changing , mine certainly changed , but instead of panicking (because lets be honest? whats the point of panicking?) We can try to be frugal. We can try to live in a way where my salary doesn't really matter that much , I can live off of any salary but the only difference b/w big salary and low salary might be the fact that your savings increase which you invest in things like index funds (boglehead investing) and the only difference it makes is on what age you can retire (thus , being a point on ageism)

I might also think that after a age , person can get a little less ambitious and more rigid , so more flexibility early on (in mid 30's) can be absolutely great but for that you need good saving habits / being frugal in your 20's.

I also believe that frugality is sometimes seen as not being ambitious or I live life only once and for that I have to say that I agree , I am frugal mostly because I have seen / just feel this tingle for spending money where my mind .

Of course , you don't have to be frugal over like a $ , but just changing your mindset & hobbies from being materialistic to non materialistic and being satisfied .

What I personally can't be is a frugal who constantly switches / worries about light bulbs / appliances just to save 2 cents or people who don't eat outdoor to save money (unless its in literally 5 star and I also believe that going to dine in full time also sucks , I just like to eat burgers , pizzas , chips etc. but some people can be really that level of frugal .

I just want to have a decent life reading good books with emergency funds and funds invested. I would try to maximize my income , but I wouldn't chase it as my ultimate goal , the ultimate number. I might earn less but if I am working on one of my passion ideas on some company , I am down.

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