Also Tesla servicing is famously bad, and the way the employees treat service requests (as described in the article) explains a lot
So, if you plan to test drive a Tesla, evaluate its range this way. If you're curious for me the listed range is often around 300, and the effective drive range tends to be around 250 200, seldom less except in cold weather.
Our BMW i3 gets EPA range on my round trip commute in the summer. It starts at the top of a mountain with a “100%” (actually 90% according to reverse engineering) battery (a tesla couldn’t regen in that situation, the bmw can).
It can be as low as 80% of EPA range with the heat pump cranked up in low 30F’s weather.
I’ve carefully measured two other EVs (not Tesla) on that route. One gets 110% of EPA, but can’t regen at 100% (so, it is similar to the BMW model without the hard 90% charge cap). The other gets EPA in the winter and does not have a heat pump.
FWIW, Tesla drivers that live up here complain about bogus range estimates.
I agree with the “type in destination and let the computer estimate” approach. That works well on all three cars, despite the mountains.
Ah so BMW advertises (and charges to I assume?) 10% less capacity than actual, which both reduces wear and allows regen even on full battery?
That's actually pretty cool. They're effectively sacrificing marketing for user experience.
That has to be an option, which you need to know exists, and actively use.
Hell, bmw could expose that exact same setting the other way around, and maybe they do. But defaults are important, and from a UX perspective I think they have the better one.
Many non-Teslas are also over-provisioned (my 2nd EV is as well based on YT testing videos).
It's uphill both ways.
Most of my driving is in the Washington/PNW, so a bit more hilly and colder than California.
Regardless, even with a small gradient, the kinetic energy can never need 100% converted back into stored energy into the battery. There will always be a loss.
He definitely burns through the battery much quicker in mountains, and going down it recoups just a small fraction of energy spent going up. Also cold messes up the numbers pretty significantly, I think he mentioned 10-15% of battery consumed standing still each full day in freezing temperatures (he told me battery keeps itself warm).
Pushing up 1,5 tonnes (or 2+ in tesla's case) of our ICE car can burn up any fuel very fast in relatively short distance. I've estimated that our current petrol and previous (otherwise very efficient) diesel burn around 1/4 to 1/3 of the fuel tank on each 1000m of altitude gained.
Cruising along on a level highway at around 60 MPH, my EV uses like 2-3% the available power. Going up a incline and you're suddenly way above 40%.
This should come as no surprise to those who have ridden a bicycle outside of Holland.
(No offense intended.)
> Also Tesla servicing is famously bad
Also, can you give a specific example of how Tesla servicing is "famously bad"? (I'm not doubting, but it will help me to better understand your comment.)
During the 4 years, it needed servicing (for actual faults, not for maintenance) 13 times.
4 of those times were "Car is dead" and it had to be towed.
To book service, you have to use the app. There's no phone number. You pick a date which is usually at least a week in advance, type in what's wrong, maybe attach a photo.
First, you'll get a reply in app's "chat" feature that your problem is actually normal, or it's somehow your fault, and it's not something they can fix.
After you've convinced them it's a real problem, your appointment comes around, and you take it into your service center, and wait about 30 minutes for someone to get around to seeing you. They repeat the previous message that it's your fault, or normal, etc. etc.
When they finally take it, there's zero feedback as to what's going on. In theory, you should get a loaner car while they repair, but they are usually "out".
3-14 days later, if you are lucky, your car is ready for pickup. No-one will be there to help you collect it, you just have to find it in the parking lot.
There's about a 50/50 chance of your problem being fixed, and 100% chance that they've added a couple of new ones. Your car will be filthy, inside and out, and need to be cleaned.
They also offer "mobile service" which is basically the same except they are rude to you in your driveway instead of at the service center.
Worst experience of any car. By far. Will never buy another one.
I have ICE and getting basic oil change must be week in advance even when I call, I never get “we can book you tomorrow”.
Heck gettin haircut in my area they have calendars blocked so you have to plan with a week in advance. Super annoying as I have a simple cut and most of time it can be done in 15mins. Ok washing down cut hair is useful so maybe 18mins.
But I get frustrated I cannot just walk in, hotels, restaurants, hairdressers.
At lest ordering food online is usually an hour so no need to wait a week
If I want to be more cost effective, I call my local repair shop and they usually have me sorted within the week.
AAA is exactly that business: call-out roadside assistance for flat/dead batteries, breakdowns, tows etc. They have 65 million members in North America. Response time varies greatly by day/time-of-day/your location/dispatching company, traffic but typically < 1.5-2h. https://mwg.aaa.com/ (And T-Mobile was even giving free AAA membership in 2024.)
Also look at this discussion on r/TeslaModelY "Do you still need AAA?" comparing reliability and response times: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModelY/comments/17ju1z2/do_you...
Basic oil change is typically while-you-wait in non-peak hours; where on earth do you live? some 'services desert'? I've even gotten while-you-wait smog testing done within 45min out-the-door.
The local mechanic here can do it the same day, and they're next to a restaurant. Last time I did an oil change and tire rotation I just grabbed lunch while they worked on it.
The dealership for my car is perpetually booked though, and my experience reflects what you mentioned.
....where do you live where that's true??? I just checked with my local Volvo garage - I can get an appointment tomorrow. Checked with our local Volkswagen garage - I can get an appointment on Wednesday. And all the big name "express service" chains like Kwik-Fit or ATS will see you while you wait. That's literally their entire business model.
>>Heck gettin haircut in my area they have calendars blocked so you have to plan with a week in advance.
Again, where the hell do you live. I know my wife has to book a hairdresser because she usually spends 4 hours in there, but I have never in my life had to book a haircut, you pop over, wait 15 minutes max, maybe 20 if it's busy and you get a haircut.
Thats a very shitty service, even cheapest noname garages give replacements
I've come to think of cars, and maybe other big purchases, as you're purchasing a culture; the company that made it and will service it - it's why Toyota is so highly regarded. I own a 20yo Toyota Tacoma - and it's making more frequent shop visits now; and there are some good independent shops, but the Toyota guys really do a good job and over-communicate what's going on when they have your vehicle. You also have a person who handles you through the entire process - it's a great experience.
Tesla culture is the opposite - buy the care and go away please.
At least they understood that if you see clean cars around you when you drive, you're more likely to buy the brand later, and keep happy clients.
In most countries you have a mandatory safety check. Here in the UK it’s called an MOT and it is annual. It will check things like tyre tread depth, whether the windscreen wash is aimed at the windscreen, steering, suspension, brake pads, brake disks, condition of seatbelts.
Normally people try and service their car at the same time. The service typically will include things like oil changes and oil filter changes and air filter changes.
1. There is mandatory service with technical exam yearly. Few days before it I call my mechanic, drive car to him, then pick it up next day. He changes the oil, brake pads if they are getting bad, tightens a few nuts. Usually I pay less than 100€ for that, but price varies heavily by car model/mechanic/location.
2. I go change the wheels before and after winter (we have to use separate ones for summer and winter there due to snow). Again, I call the mechanic, drive the car to him same day, chat for 15min, then he is finished. Around 120€ if I need new wheels, just 40€ if previous season ones are still good.
Every so often a bit bigger service is needed (if exhaust needs to be replaced or something else). In this case the car stays at mechanic over weekend, maybe max 4-5 days if he needs to order parts he doesn't have in stock.
Average it's less than 400€ yearly and less than a week of downtime in total per year.
The issue isn't the driving range, but rather the unexplained loss of range. I'm talking about losses of 7.5% if I leave it parked in front of my house for an hour or two. I have photos too; if you reach out to Tesla, they curtly tell me the battery is fine.
A vague "you need to keep your car plugged in" is frankly insane, what if I went on a 100km trip, left my car outside for an hour or two, and came back without enough range to go home? I've heard people say to disable the app on my phone, but that frankly seems like a Tesla problem, not a "me" problem.
I still enjoy driving the car. I just wouldn't trust it for long range driving. I probably will buy Hyundai or BYD (if Canada lets them in) next time.
What I have seen is that the BMS may update its SoC estimate after driving, and I've seen it adjust the estimated SoC up or down by as much as 5% in some cases.
I get that from a planning perspective, it still stinks to have range than you thought you did an hour ago, but it's not all that different from the variation you might get with an analog dial on the gas tank, just that it's much easier to notice and track when it's digital and showed as a precise number.
https://imgdrop.io/image/IMG-2984.ADiI7
It's not the end of the world for driving around town with less than my whole family (which is 90% of my driving) but it's definitely annoying to come back to a car with 50% charge and see it with 43. I imagine it would be terrifying for a 20 -> 13, especially with the lack of supercharging infrastructure where I live (Calgary).
Does it only happen when you park in front of the garage at home, or does it also happen if you go out somewhere? For example, it might be struggling to connect to your WiFi at home (if you set it up with your home WiFi credentials) to download updates or upload telemetry, which would keep it awake longer than normal as it tries to make do with kilobits per second of usable bandwidth.
The issues do happen a lot in front of my house (which has very poor cell phone coverage). I've had lessor drops elsewhere.
I was wondering about the wifi myself too. I don't have wifi in front of the house and I didn't configure wifi either; I've actually installed wifi in my garage and left the car inside to see and I would get similar power losses.
I wonder if there is (a) a battery warming issue or (b) an issue because my phone w/ the Tesla app & bluetooth on is too close to the car, leading to it not going into standby mode? I don't think it is the former because it would be categorised differently (and it would not happen in summer). Turning off bluetooth on my phone everytime I come inside is honestly a bit insane and I would put that in the "It's a Tesla App problem"; but I don't hear about that issue from other drivers.
The real unfortunate part is that there is no way for me to get this diagnosed. It's been a problem since I bought the car, but it seems to be getting worse over time.
Anyway, I wonder if Tesla’s are missing the “if 12V is completely shot, give up” logic. Replacing it is cheap and might fix the car. Some models let you monitor the 12V charger with an OBD-II dongle.
That’d let you prove me right or wrong.
The problem did not improve.
It is fine to turn these off, other cars don't even have these and they are fine.
I've also noticed a bit of drain when camping. It doesn't help that you often open/close the doors/trunk to access stuff ;)
BTW, for the cabin I did two things:
- I installed a permanent shade for the sun roof. The sun roof is the stupidest thing ever, I hate it.
- In the summer, I usually put one of those shiny umbrellas to the front windshield when parked.
These two things alone reduce the cabin heat to an okay level.
Of course, this is from Tesla, and they famously puff up everything.. but I would expect even if not as good as claimed here, for the downhill part to certainly help a lot still.
What may not help is if they fully charge at work and have no battery capacity to soak up the regen on the way home. Regen ability gets limited the closer you get to 100%.
The results they report are incomparable for two reasons:
- straight line steep mountain roads don’t exist. On curvy roads (like mine) they’d need to repeatedly round trip energy to and from the battery, and that’s going to eat about 5% each time.
- the article claims going up and down the mountain uses as much energy as driving one mile. During the ascend/descend they drive 500 miles. The wind resistance for one mile flat and one mile on the mountain should be comparable, so their 95% efficiency number must be subtracting that (and rolling resistance) out.
But what if the battery heats up a lot during a climb and is still hot while going down? It is know batteries charge slow when they are hot.
Were you mislead about or unaware of the range claims when you bought the car?
I don't own an EV or have any real interest in them, but I know the range is highly dependent on driving conditions and automobile condition (often to a much greater degree than ICE vehicles) and I'd assumed that was made pretty clear in advertising materials and sales pitch. I could easily see unscrupulous companies and salesmen or just unaware 2nd hand buyers being caught out by the range claims though.
1) for battery preservation, you generally do not fully charge every night. So, lose 10% from that
2) battery degradation, things are better, but 10% max loss is common I would say
3) people drive faster than testing. Knock off about 10% for that
4) cold? hot? AC? heat? another 10% off
5) there isn't a charger around every corner, so you have to plan ahead and to be safe get a charger when you're at like ... 10% left
Holy crap, 50% loss of range! And if you are in a scenario where you are recharging on the road, you are doing the "80% charge" which really is a loss of 10-20% more effective range. Ok, the poster isn't being that dramatic.
This is why for non-city non-commuter scenarios, especially in midwest/rural areas, a PHEV with a 50 mile all-electric range would simnply be a far better car, for far less battery supply. Daily city driving rarely exceeds 50%, the engine can do range extension on the rare long distance trips, and it can also help with heat/cooling that heat pumps can't help with. PHEV drivetrains will still have regen, peppy acceleration, and good torque if done correctly.
I'm hoping the Dodge Ramcharger does really well. 100 miles almost in all-electric, and an engine to recharge it for really long ranges and towing capacity.
A truly peer range EV will probably need another 50% density, so
If you have a big trip then you can charge to 100% if you need to.
Yes, if you go faster you'll use more energy per km. If you're pushing it then you're going to want to slow down a little.
In my "daily" driving I use about 20%-30% of capacity max and I have a pretty long commute. I tend to keep my battery around 50% most of the time and not go too low or too high.
There are certainly trips to remote places that I can't do with my EV and I have made some adjustments to trip plans to accommodate but all in all it's been a non-issue.
Btw, if we're running down a list of issues then phantom drain is another one. I do worry about energy loss when camping e.g. I've had a situation where I got to the campground with ~20% and the next day in the cold was something like ~10% and barely made it to the charger.
On all advertising marerials for cars (ICE or EV) i have seen only: consumption may vary with driving conditions. That's all. How much they vary, is left as an exercise for the reader.
My Polestar 2 range is not great in the cold and on hills, but the real gotcha is charging it to 80% and then plugging in around 30%. Using about 42 kW / 100 U.S. mile that means 50% of a roughly 75 kW battery only gives me 89 miles between charges. (But some of that is self imposed.)
Still 180 mile range would be well under the advertised 260.
Now if I use 100% and I get closer to 35 kW / 100 miles in the summer, the range is about 215 miles. Curious how much better it'll be in the summer though.
I have a Model Y, several friends have Teslas, one uses his Model 3 for Uber. Everyone can get the expected range when doing 90 km/h in the summer, and at least half of the range on the highway in the winter, but usually more than that.
Maybe your consumption is that much when going steeply uphill, but then you will have to come back down and your consumption will be negative as it will recharge your battery.
I'd still reckon that range estimates should ignore these extreme edge cases, though.
This is one of those comments that continues to come up but has never added up. Certainly if you are comparing a Tesla compared to a compact or a Euro version of a compact. Absolutely there is a weight difference. The problem is if you did a like for like comparison..a Model Y is the same Weight as an X3. A Model 3 is a couple hundred pounds heavier than a Toyota Camry.
Batteries are heavy!
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/volvo-xc40-2017-suv...
Stop that. 10 - 15% doesn’t constitute “much, much”.