Magnesium Self-Experiments
gwern.net
gwern.net
Magnesium Glycinate makes me sleep like a baby at night.
B is typically included for synergistic uptake reasons I believe.
Excess B12 is really bad. Neuropathy. Considering you take Mg to get rid of muscle cramps (pain, conducted by nerves), a bit ironic. It's increasingly common in Australia now.
Excess Mg is unlikely. I think the body chucks it out in Urine pretty rapidly. I still take it, the cramps after sport return within a few months when I stop. I have a fruit and veg rich diet, I get plenty of natural Mg and K which is also good for muscle cramps. Age related insufficiency I suspect (63) malabsorption comes with age.
B12 has to jump through a number of hoops before it‘s even converted into a usable form [1].
I‘m sure you‘re meaning well, but B12 deficiency is a wide spread problem [2], and it’s questionable that excess is worse than deficiency.
1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19832808/#&gid=article-figur...
2: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7792587/
EDIT: After posting, I saw your other comments. Maybe you can update parent.
A low B6 diet and focus on conversion to P5P and oxidation of the excess (Aldehyde Oxidase, and maybe by proxy the ALDHs) is a safer bet.
Do you have any source for this? I can find some "it-might-be-bad" studies through a quick googling, but in general the idea seem to be that excess B12 is thought to be unproblematic ("it's just peed out").
I accidentally poisoned myself with B6 from Magnesium tablets over the course of a year: https://davids.town/vitamin-b6-overdose (my levels were 38x the healthy range).
tl;dr: Always check your Magnesium for what else the tablet includes. If it contains Pyridoxine hydrochloride (i.e. Vitamin B6) or another Pyridoxine compound, find one that doesn't. Since then, Swisse is the only brand I've found that consistently sells "pure" Magnesium tablets here in Australia.
I take 50mg a day in a bio-available form pyridoxal-5-phosphate. Consider this form instead.
I'm taking it because there is some genetic evidence that I would benefit from doing so. No neuropathies thus far but it's only been about a month and a half.
Blood tests since then have shown that my B6 levels are fine with my usual diet, I don't take multivitamins or supplements anymore.
I don't know much about B6 beyond my own experiences with it, so all I can say is make sure you've discussed it with your GP, and be aware of the coasting effect if you do happen to develop any neuropathic symptoms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavitamin-B6_syndrome
Genetic data is useful to know really, especially for people with MTHFR mutations as many pathways get affected.
UK/EU upper safety limits are at 10-12mg per day. US UL of 200mg is way past due for an overhaul.
I personally got sick from a B complex with 40mg pyridoxine after just 4 months. Developed dysautonomia (not a canonical example, but still a kind of neuropathy - damage to autonomic nervous system). Had random tachycardia and high blood pressure flares from various triggers every week, took a while to figure out what was really causing it. Your typical non-neurologist GP wouldn't know anything because "it's water soluble" and the textbooks say neuropathy develops at 200mg+. All symptoms mostly resolved after a month once I threw away everything with pyridoxine. Wouldn't touch it again, always on a lookout for B6 in my multis and supplements now. P5P form is thought to be safer, but also got people sick - look around on facebook B6 groups for more anecdata.
No problem with B12 as far as I know. It's not a neurotoxin unlike B6.
How much really is dangerously excess? How do methylcobalamin vs cyanocobalamin compare in this regard? I noticed B12 supplements usually exceed the RDA by some orders of magnitude.
> Increasingly hard to get Mg tablets without Vitamin B
Same problem with iron supplements. Not particularly easy to find iron without folic acid. Folic acid can be very harmful for people with methylation problems (an extremely widespread genetic thing) who should supplement methylfolate instead. Whoever feels stimulated and harder to sleep after taking a folic acid pill - beware.
As for methyl vs cyano, it depends whether you have the genetic factors that would benefit or not from methyl groups. In my case I wouldn't benefit so I don't take the methyl form and instead take the hydroxy and adeno forms.
Cyano is useless. Needs multiple steps in the liver to convert.
I sprained something in my lower back badly enough about a year ago that it took four trips to the chiropractor before I could get out of bed in the morning without lots of swearing. After that, it would seem to be getting better for a few days, then regress into spasms again. After a month or so of that, I remembered that Mg is supposed to be good for tendons and ligaments. I took a good dose of Mg that night, and it was significantly better the next day, and improved from there. That's the only time in my life that I've had a clear, major difference from taking a supplement.
https://www.cvs.com/shop/cvs-health-magnesium-glycinate-200m...
I got my Bs mixed up it's Mg + B6
I wish there was better research on this, because so far only weird isolated cases make the news.
But I was really just wanting B1 and a bit more shopping found drops (annoying) and tablets with only B1 and negligble other stuff.
Then it’s also used in cheese sauces, etc - to the point where it’s somewhat of a meme to just add it whenever you want umami. Then many vegans already take a B multi to handle B12.
Point of all this being that this particular diet can lead to overdosing on B6 without realizing it. Once I got myself a non fortified Nutritional Yeast for baking/cooking, I noticed changes in myself for the better.
Obligatory “I am not a doctor and YMMV”
https://purebulk.com/search?type=product&q=magnesium
Or grab these next time in Europe. 0.50 Euros effervescent tablets https://www.rossmann.de/de/gesundheit-altapharma-brausetable...
I never heard about the B12 problem. But effervescent tablets without artificial sweetener are unheard off.
Maybe it depends on technical cause of what seems to be cramps. And maybe it helps indirectly by helping some other process in the body. But in ny experience there’s direct correlation between magnesium intake and cramps and nail health.
I’ve a feeling genetics may be involved since my kid also has similar tendencies. And doctor we went to for his night cramps did suggest magnesium which worked. So whether there’s research or not, doctors do suggest it and it does seem to help at least in some cases.
If you're experiencing muscle cramps due to low magnesium then adding a supplement will almost certainly fix the problem.
If you're experiencing muscle cramps for another reason, it won't work, probably.
But supplements are cheap and low risk, so it's a good thing to try first.
A more accurate statement would be "there is no scientific proof that Mg works against cramps [absent a Mg deficiency]."
However, potassium and calcium are a lot more prevalent in standard diets so it's usually lack of magnesium that is the culprit.
Source: I can reproduce this on demand.
Running for a year now, it doesn't seem to make a difference.
But if your lived experience says it works, it doesn't really need to have scientific evidence.
The real question is if there is evidence that relevant doesea of magnesium supplements are harmful, and if so, how those harms compare to the cramps you're experiencing.
There's all sorts of unscientific stuff out there, some of which is harmful. But if it's not harmful, it's worth trying.
If you get frequent cramps and you don't want to try magnesium supplements, you could try going out of your way to eat more foods that are known to be high in magnesium, most of which are generally considered healthy and there you go; choosing to eat a bit more leafy greens doesn't feel risky unless you've got an alergy. Having a banana to get potasium should be fine for most too, unless the fruit sugar is a problem or if there's an allergy.
The non-blood test way would be to take magnesium until you get diarrhea and then take less but that is obviously not a pleasant experience.
I take magnesium because it is really obvious when I track micro nutrients that I don't get enough in my diet. It mostly depends though on how much spinach I am eating.
from https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6316205/
Of clinical importance, around 0.3% of total body magnesium is found in serum. Thus, total and/or ionized magnesium concentrations measured in plasma or serum are not reliable markers of total magnesium levels in the body; as serum magnesium does not reflect the total magnesium content at the tissue or organs, and is also a poor indicator of intracellular magnesium content.
Emerging evidence suggests that the serum magnesium/calcium quotient (0.4 is optimal, 0.36–0.28 too low) is a more practical and sensitive indicator of magnesium status and/or turnover, than the serum magnesium level alone [19]. In chronic latent magnesium deficiency, magnesium levels in the blood are within a normal range, despite there being severely depleted magnesium content in the tissues and bones. Therefore, using magnesium levels in the blood to determine total magnesium levels in the body can result in underestimation of magnesium deficiency in healthy and diseased populations. Recent studies have shown that individuals with serum magnesium levels around 1.82 mg/dL (0.75 mmol/L) are most likely to have a magnesium deficiency, while those with serum magnesium level more than 2.07 mg/dL (0.85 mmol/L) are most likely to have adequate levelsIf you're ever so severely clogged up that you're approaching a week without - Epsom salt will, in fact, work. It works so well that I'd recommend pre/probiotic foods for a couple days afterward. It completely cleans you out.
Otherwise, I agree. You have to know why you're clogged, too; if you got no clue, go see a Dr.
It can also be added to your bathwater or used as a foot soak.
Really? I found plenty at popular online stores. Or are you saying that the vitamin B is undisclosed on the labels???
For the muscle relaxant effect (other than perhaps bowel muscles), mg oxide is hardly useful.
This is what I’m questioning. Most of these variants are claiming subtler psychological effects — when the basic stuff has a very direct effect that I think is positive.
I always just buy the magnesium pills that just say “magnesium.”
No one sells pills of pure magnesium - that would be eating metal shavings or metal beads.
It is ALWAYS a magnesium ion paired with an anion of some sort. Is that what you mean? Ones with only magnesium salt or oxide - I.e citrate, carbonate etc
Why not consider that it might alter the gut flora?
Different substances may have seriously different subjective (e.g. on mood, sleep) effect in at least some people (e.g. me). I may be a good idea to try bisglycinate, orotate, threanate to check whether some of them act the way you like.
Not to me, gives me a full night of deep uninterrupted sleep instead.
> out of body experiences
I would pay thousands of dollars for a pill which would give me an out of body experience. To me it seems among the most important things to have experienced before you die.
Some malaria drugs have pretty serious warnings aboit psychiatric effects that may continue even after stopping use, so be careful.
They've gone away unfortunately.
[1] Alawi et al. (2018) Magnesium and Human Health: Perspectives and Research Directions; https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5926493/
This has changed: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9786204/
Notably, though, their results indicate effects on cognition and memory, which the OP's experiments don't seem to address.
People on HN crack me up. We're smart enough to know that supplements can be beneficial, and how, but not so smart we don't need a nanny to tell us to be careful?
Less anecdotally, regulatory agencies around the world have repeatedly lowered what they consider safe amounts of B6.
B6 is particularly an issue because there seems to be a general assumption that b vitamins are safe, and that water-soluble vitamins cannot be harmful. Couple that with the tendency of multivitamins and energy drinks to add b-vitamins, and it's very easy to end up overdosing on B6, which it turns out can be harmful despite being a water-soluble b-vitamin.
Thanks for the heads' up, this is completely different than the 250mg mentioned elsewhere (iirc) - i'll let people know.
aside: L-theanine made me jittery, boy. Not a fan.
For me: I need 0.3 mg melatonin almost every day to control my sleep and do a bunch of other things. The onset is between 1 to 3 hours. In practice it means I need to be okay with an early wake-up if it kicks in within 1 hour.
When I feel jittery/trembly I need magnesium as my jitters stop when I take it.
Curious about this! Currently trying to figure out a good 0.3mg melatonin dosing regimine for myself.
My cramps weren't night cramps, but sport/exercise cramps.
There are a lot of variables, even in your day to day work activities (e.g. you never debug & implement a fix for the exact same bug twice...one bug might be a satisfying and enjoyable activity, another might be a frustrating, difficult, and tedious pain in the ass)
I've done similar trials with magnesium glcyinate and personally not noticed any difference. But then I have not found any way to accurately measure differences between what a "good day" is Vs a "bad day". Even without supplementing, it feels like dice roll at the best of times
But then I went to one of those sensory deprivation chambers, where they use magnesium salts to change the water’s buoyancy.
I felt the most content and happy in my life for a week after. It was really bizarre - I would “just not care” about pressures at work, failing personal relationships, any stress really.
And I remained effective, just with a higher EQ because I wouldn’t overthink things.
Tried it some more times with similar effect. So now when I end up in a situation where I build up stress and can’t seem to get to a chill state - just go for a deprivation tank and align myself back, though I try not to get into a situation where I need one altogether.
I consistently find the only thing I can correlate reliably is sleep quality assessment upon waking up. If I feel great and rested I know my performance during the day will be better at pretty much everything.
But he do excel at making a site a pain in the ass to navigate and bulking up the volume of text without adding anything useful to it.
It reeks of some effective altruist flavored breed of pomposity.
The bad thing? Mag Chloride is highly hydroscopic. You really can’t make it into a pill or they get all weird and goopy. So to get Mag Chloride you have to get it in a liquid form and it is moderately expensive. Worse than the expense, it tastes positively horrid. Still, it has the best impact on my sleep than other forms, so take that for what it is worth.
Reportedly, excess amounts over what the body can handle wouldn't get topically absorbed (unlike orally) and leave a white residue and that's how you'd know you've had enough - but I never had that happen to me personally.
Anectodally, while on B6, I had a period of magnesium intolerance - it was a reliable trigger for my dysautonomia flares. I did have reactions to magnesium chloride spray - tachycardia, blood pressure spike, sometimes headache within ~15 minutes of applying it.
These are the products that work for me: Magnesium Lysinate Glycinate from Doctor's Best, and Magnesium Taurate from Double Wood.
Ideal features:
Notification to self report things such as mood, quality of sleep.
Tracking of custom activities/actions (whether you worked out, drunk, or whatever)
Data export in csv :)iOS only and requires an Apple Watch, but the deep of tracking coupled with the ease of use is amazing. It gives you a strain, recovery and sleep score that is very accurate. It syncs with your Apple Watch so you can see in depth markers such as HRV and total sleep time, with some metrics that the standard health app doesn't show. It automatically tracks a bunch of health markers. For example, It keeps track of how much zone 2 cardio I did, the amount of steps I did, the amount of daylight I had in a day, the noise of my bedroom, and a bunch of other measurements. You can also add custom measurements. I added one for taking my sleep supplements as a custom one, and I can see on the days I took it my objective sleep parameters are improved. It gives you a percentage score for each activity or action and its impact on your sleep or recovery. For example, I see if I have a late meal, it negatively impacts my sleep by 17%.
It's not the most scientific app out there, but the simplicity of its design coupled with its sleek interface has made me incorporate some good habits.
Oh god I just noticed how much this sounds like an ad, but it's one of my favorite purchases this year!
Previously I was using Daylio, but that only allows you to make one entry per day.
I.e. vit D, is it cholecalciferol or calcidiol? It matters. Also D2 in mushrooms exposed to the sun, even dried, works, eventually. But rare in supplements!
If one is looking to be healthy, the effort is much better spent on getting good sleep, healthy well balanced diet, regular exercise, maintain social relationships, manage stress. No one wants to hear this because simplicity is boring, and useless for social-status signaling.
Vitamins and all the other biohacking stuff is nonsense that gets in the way of that, with minimal benefit, and opening oneself to harms (in a rumsfeldian known known, known unknown, and unknown unknown sense).