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Comment by sepositus | Hacker News Reader

> To quote Drummond again, he also said today that he believes it to be “extremely unlikely” that Trump would cut off UK access to Trident missiles since it would be a “strategic betrayal on a grand scale that would damage him and America”.

I'm gonna take a stab and say there hasn't been an immediate, sharp increase in public desire to completely destroy relations with Europe. Certainly, the Ukraine war is very polarizing, especially in the U.S., but I don't know how far I would read into it to determine overall European sentiments.

I'm specifically thinking outside the confines of Trump, who is a wildcard, and pointing more toward public sentiment.

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We havent seen or heard any great public outcry about what Trump is doing, we havent seen any reaction to his betrayal of Ukraine. The impression we get is that the US public just dont care. Domestic issues, primarily economic are whats most important to them. If the US cut off access to Trident for the UK I doubt there would be much of a reaction from the US public.

A lot of Americans see Europe as degenerate, immoral, holier-than-thou, and leeching off of US largesse. They'll probably cheer anything that sticks it to Europe and looks like it would save money for the US. There's a lot of overlap with Trump supporters in this group. (To be clear, I'm not one of them, that's just a sentiment I hear from certain quarters.)

Yes, that does seem to be the impression we're getting in Europe. The western alliance is dead, but the only people mourning it are in Europe.

Not true. A significant portion of the US is in mourning over the betrayal of our allies.

I've been lamenting the actions by the new administration with my European friends on Telegram. Do you have a lot of friends here in the US?

I'm curious if your impression is mostly informed by what media have told you about how we feel, or if you have talked to any Americans about how we feel about the current administration...

To be clear, I'm against U.S. boots on the ground in Ukraine, but I still very much respect my European friends. I was just travelling there not too long ago. I think sometimes people with my perspective get locked into the "anti-European" group due to our views on the Ukraine war.

I don't think I've heard anyone suggest U.S. boots on the ground.

From my understanding, it seems that's the direction Ukraine's European allies are heading. I'm possibly wrong. I'm just saying that's where I draw the line for me, personally.

Dudes just a concern troll. Old boy just wanted in to re-enforce the fear that US involvement = US boots on the ground even though it makes no sense in reality or in the context of the conversation at hand.

We can all see that Europe _could_ have done much more for itself and Ukraine - we see that - but chose not to, despite American requests for over a decade.

In Europe the UK were the only nation to take the Russian threat seriously, they trained and armed the Ukrainians as best they could. France was trying diplomatic means to persuede Russia to curtail it hostilities. Germany just ignored them because cheap natural gas for their industry. Post invasion though they've given significant amounts of aid, but it was rather later than they should have.

>France was trying diplomatic means to persuede Russia to curtail it hostilities.

There were two years between these diplomatic efforts and now. What happened in the meantime? It's obvious EU could have invested more in defence. How come they get outcompeted by _North Korean_ defence industry?

Another thing - it's actually very easy to help Ukraine and punch Putin. Just place EU troops in Western Ukraine, to free up Ukrainians for the war. Putin will find out he has to agree to security guarantees otherwise he'll get literal troops in his face. EU statesmen are pressuring US for guarantees they are unwilling to give themselves, when they ought to do it for their own interests.

I think Trump is very very crass to say the least, but you also need to look at underlying realities, and EU behaviour has been poor.

The EU didnt take the threat seriously because they couldnt comprehend Putin jeapordising trade relationships with the rest of Europe. Putin in turn thought that Europe would roll over like they did with Crimea, they'd also be scared to lose access to Russian gas. Both sides were wrong. Putin was stupider than the EU realised and Russian gas was not as indispensible as he though it was.

We can also see that a decent chunk of Europe went into Afghanistan with us, and even some into Iraq, when they could have easily stayed home.

It's not just the military. For example, a common argument I see for why the US can't have proper universal health care when so much of Europe manages to do it is that Europe is (supposedly) free-riding off of US medical R&D.

I'd also wager that a large part of this group doesn't think anyone should be helping Ukraine.

>We can also see that a decent chunk of Europe went into Afghanistan with us

There's a difference between big EU countries (which have been skimping), and the small E. European countries which are more realistic about defence. Note Ukraine itself did a lot here.

>a common argument I see for why the US can't have proper universal health care when so much of Europe manages to do it is that Europe is (supposedly) free-riding off of US medical R&D.

US actually spends more. The trick is seeing where this expenditure goes ('greedy CEOs' is technically accurate, but not the biggest reason).

People are infuriated beyond all previous measure. Just wait til it gets a little warmer and the economy really starts crashing in earnest.

>We havent seen or heard any great public outcry about what Trump is doing

The police are threating to kill us if we protest.

Our students, normally the readiest to protest, face threats of expulsion and deportation if they attend a protest that is deemed "illegal".

Most of our working class are living paycheck to paycheck. In this job market, that means missing even a few days' work to protest means looking for a new job. With a lack of real social support programs, a large scale protest means hungry children. Maybe even homeless children.

What would you like us to do?

I think the protests will start in earnest once there's a large unemployed population. How long will that take, though?

This was the reason that was given 8 years ago the last time Trump was in power. We couldnt understand why the US public werent packing the streets in protest,like they would have in France or Germany or Italy. And the same reason was given, it was economic, people couldnt afford to take the time to protest. And he we are 8 year later and hundreds of thousands of people are about to be fired, democracy is and the rule of law are under threat. Which is what we said to them back then, if you dont do it now you wont have the chance next time.

>like they would have in France or Germany or Italy.

How many protestors have been executed by police in France or Germany or Italy in the last decade?

Wait, I'm a bit confused by what you're saying. Did I miss something recent? There's been recent executions of protestors in the US?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/11/us/cop-city-atlanta-protester...

We've had hundreds of protests since then, with no executions that I'm aware of. You can't possibly be putting this one case forward to justify that the US is executing protestors? That was clearly a cop with a murderous intent, which isn't uncommon these days, unfortunately.

How many protestors have been executed by police in France or Germany or Italy in the last decade?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_R%C3%A9mi_Fraisse

That's not the impression that I (as a Dane) get, far from it. But it just doesn't matter that many people in the US are upset, they are as powerless as we are in Europe.

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