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Comment by Cthulhu_ | Hacker News Reader

Reminds me of the (supposed) benefits of reintroducing wolves at Yellowstone; they reduced and got the elk population moving, reducing overgrazing, helping beavers recover, and helping rivers and biodiversity to recover.

https://www.yellowstone.org/wolf-project/, https://rewilding.academy/how-wolves-change-rivers/

Of course, that's Yellowstone which is a lot bigger and not populated by people. Wolves are returning (or, being allowed to return) to the Netherlands as well where they end up decimating sheep populations for the fun of it, much to the chagrin of farmers.

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Slightly off-topic but it's related to wolves.

My parents' neighbours have a huge number of goats in their property. It really is in the middle of nowhere Northern Portugal and for decades everyone always said "oh the wolves are gone, they used to be such a menace to our animals but not anymore. Barely any need for guard dogs".

However, there is a small (200~300) population of wolves and since Covid it seems they got less scared of people, or more brave and desperate because the intense forest fires have ravaged their turf. Last year they attacked the goats and killed dozens of them. It was, according to my dad, one of the goriest things he ever saw.

Guess what, the guard dogs are back, nobody says it's all a thing in the past. On one hand it's great news that wolves are making a comeback but there's always the other side.

Is your parents' property fenced off? How does using guard dogs compare to having an electric fence?

My parent's neighbours, they're not my parents' goats (they only have a few to keep their property clean).

The neighbours have a big piece of land and electrifying the fences would be quite expensive, the guard dogs seem to be doing their jobs quite well, no attacks since then.

I have livestock in an area with mountain lions, bears, and coyotes. There’s no fence that I could build that will reliably keep out a mountain lion, because they can jump very high and climb trees. Electrified fences with a high enough hot line will keep out coyotes and bears, but no one I know fences entire pastures that way. It would be very expensive and require a lot of maintenance. Livestock Guardian Dogs bred to protect livestock will do a much better job of scaring off and fighting predators. They’re specific breeds like Anatolians and Maremmas, not regular farm dogs.

What’s the alternative here? No wolves and less biodiversity? That’s detrimental in the long-term.

The real issue here seems to be the forest fires that disturbed the wolves’ equilibrium.

I think it's good they're prospering! Was just telling an anecdote. Guard dogs and better fences seem to be working, they never had another attack since then.

All solutions are compromises. For example here in France:

Wolves ? You have to get guardian dogs (a requirement to get compensated for attacks), accept that a part of your herd will be killed each year (disrupting the dynamic of the herd I've been told) and getting a small compensation. Guardian dogs cause problems with hikers. Someone I know had her dog killed, and I hate having 3 or 4 of them barking around me until I get far from a herd. They aren't that many incidents but it's always a stressful situation.

No wolves? You rely on hunters to regulate the population of some species (chamois, alpine ibex, etc.)

People against the reintroduction of wolves seem to see proponents as city dwellers with no experience of the real world, and proponents seem to see people against it as retrograde.

As someone with young kids... I want to be a free-range parent to the extent possible, but I'm not going to let my kids wander around in the forest if there are wolf packs loose in the area.

This worked well in 1950s Britain because they had exterminated all large predators! Let's be real about that. For most of human history, nature was deadly.

There have been a small number of cases where wolves attack humans, but the majority of attacks that do occur generally prey on cattle or sheep. With fencing and guard dogs, an equilibrium can be reached. Maybe have you kids wander with a protective dog. I don't want to see us continually destroy and suppress biodiversity because it's inconvenient for us.

There have been a small number of cases where wolves attack humans because

1. Humans have spent centuries exterminating wolves anywhere humans regularly go.

2. Humans adapt their behavior to minimize the risk of attack by wild predators.

This is like saying "relatively few people get mugged wandering around alone in the tenderloin at 3am". It's because everyone knows it's a terrible idea and avoids doing so. That doesn't make the area safe.

Let’s put it into perspective. How many people get attacked by dogs vs wolves?

How many people are attacked by grizzly bears vs dogs?

To be honest, that area is very hilly and rough. Even without wolf packs loitering around I wouldn't recommend young kids wandering by themselves outside of the fenced areas.

When you say kids, do you mean young goats or young humans?

We have wolves and the occasional bear on our property. They cause problems with chickens and trash cans, not people. They don't want to mess with us any more than we want to be messed with, and they typically keep their distance to the point that we see their tracks, not them.

I wouldn't tell a toddler to go play in the woods, you are correct about that, but the rest of us freely wander nature without fretting too much over it. I also just checked and there have been zero wolf attacks on humans in my state. Ever. We just aren't their preferred targets.

I agree that we shouldn't be worrying about reintroduced wolves causing much risk to humans, but historical perspective is a good idea: We shouldn't worry about them in the context of today, since wolves have learned to be very careful about bothering humans. In earlier history, it was a different story.

From what i've read, lethal wolf attacks in premodern Europe, even up to the late 18th century, were extremely common and claimed hundreds of human lives per year. Predators are predators. They stop attacking easy prey only if they're forcefully habituated into not doing so, not because they've become more warm, fuzzy and calm.

I lived the first 40 years of my life in bear and mountain lion territory and spent lots of time out in the wild, especially as a kid (usually a group of three or four of us). This is the first time I've lived where there is no wild animals to worry about aside from one variety of snake. It was a very odd sensation to realize I didn't have to be vigilantly aware of my surroundings to prevent a wild animal encounter. People have lived with predators for all of our existence

I live in the SF Bay Area (Los Altos Hills). My neighbor used to raise miniature goats. A few years ago a mountain lion got into the goat pasture and killed all the goats. It was pretty gory. On the other hand, it seems like the mountain lions (and coyotes) are doing a pretty good job bringing down the local deer population. I wish they would also start eating the non-native wild turkeys that have migrated into my area over the past 5 years or so.

Of the 800,000 sheep in the Netherlands, dogs kill 13,000 every year. There's quite a smaller wolf population than dogs.

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