Sayonara, R35: Nissan Japan has stopped taking orders for the GT-R

I interpreted it a "regulations bad".

I wonder if a fuel economy standard that ignores vehicle size would be viable. That would advantage the lightest, most aerodynamic cars and make big vehicles expensive. Some people need big vehicles, but increasing costs for those people might be an acceptable tradeoff for making the average car smaller with the inherent benefits to fuel economy and reduced danger to other road users.

Did you buy Z3 in the end? :D

That’s mostly the AP1 with the 9,0000 rpm rev limit.

Wanna know how I _handle_ it? I check the oil before I drive it and top it up. Perhaps I could swap retainers and banjo bolts but I’m lazy and checking the oil is easy. I pop the hood when I pull into my garage to remind me to check the oil before racing off.

The DCT on the GT-R definitely wasn't as rough around the edges as I anticipated it might be.

I'm not a car enthusiast, however having driven both manual and automatic cars I just find driving manual cars more fun, and I imagine a lot of enthusiasts do too. I feel more in control of the car, and getting good performance feels like it's taking skill, even in a slower car. I don't think I'd find anything satisfying about driving an automatic, but faster car, in the same way.

I think it's something that's coming about because of the level of performance reached by the average sports car - in prior eras, the actual mechanical challenge of making a car fast meant achieving higher and higher peak performance also required more engagement from the driver, and I think a lot of people implicitly conflated the two. Starting in the 2000s (and this is really where it's interesting to see the perspective here on the R35, because I recall this being a critique of the car at the time), computer-controlled transmissions, AWD, engine tuning, etc. took a lot of that out of the drivers' hands in the service of making the cars just absolutely brutally fast. EVs are the apex of this - the acceleration is ridiculous, the "skateboard" with all the heavy batteries at the bottom does wonders for keeping the cars planted, and the performance these cars can reach is astounding, but... it's boring. So now I think more people are coming around to the idea that sports car driving is not a numbers game - who can be the fastest around the lap - but an actual visceral hobby, something to engage the senses, and in many cases that almost requires the car to not be as fast or as capable as what you can get with more tech in the middle.

Shifting manually is fun, that's it for me. It's like playing an arcade game while driving, it's more to do.

It’s not, having driven manuals and automatics around the Nordschleife, automatic feels so uneventful. With manual one is constantly involved. Even paddle shifting is boring.

It's not a new thing, it's always been a popular choice in the enthusiast community.

What's nice is finally the market is catching up with the manual (again).

It used to be the performance choice.

When the automatics/twin clutches got good in the 2000/2010 era, a lot of performance cars preferred the faster/easier transmission, and the people spending new-car money on performance cars opted for it (or were forced into it).

As with many things, the new-car-money people aren't a cross section of the enthusiast community, they have different preferences. Some want the latest tech, some want their expensive purchase to be easy to drive every day, etc.

But the used market has always valued the manual more highly than the new car market, and the lower-and-lower take rate of the manual in new cars means the values of the manual are stronger than ever. However, I can't remember a time when an automatic or twin clutch pulled more $ on the used market.

God forbid someone just enjoys engaging more of their body in the act of driving. What's next, pillorying retro-computing enthusiasts and accusing them of arrested development because no one legitimately enjoys old & slow computers?

How rough they are is dependent on programming. The Getrag DCT I had in my BMW was amazing and beat the ZF-8 on crispiness, speed, and weight.

Where the ZF-8 wins is stop & go traffic. The DCT will do its very best to minimize slip, where the ZF-8 just doesn't lock up the lock-up clutch.

But once you're moving the DCT was butter smooth, with selectable engagement speed.

As long as you're stock or just doing some bolt ons and an E85/FF tune, the DCT is fine. If you're doing big power upgades, you will need to throw in a shep trans kit or something else, but you're gonna need forged con rods before that - you'll bend rods on a stock motor before you'll break the stock DCT.

It's also butter smooth compared to contemporary peer DCTs, like the getrag box that was thrown in the Ferrari 458 and AMG GT, though I personally prefer the feel of being kicked back into your seat at full throttle + highway speeds from the getrag box. It's fun, but not quite as punishing as a hard launch in a Model S Plaid, which feels more like the car is trying to relocate your kidneys to about 3 feet behind you.

The one exception to the smoothness of Nissan's DCT is slow right hand turns in 1st or 2nd. It seems to not want to upshift as quickly as you'd think it ought to in that situation more often than I would've preferred. But that's more of a minor QoL thing than a real problem, IMO.

A much bigger problem with the R35 is that if it ever gets towed without a flatbed (i.e. rear wheels on road), you grenade most of the drivetrain (including the DCT), and that's like $20k+ in parts before you even start counting labor.

I remember reading about that - Managing use of launch control on a Tesla, or any vehicle is probably a mindful risk.

I do think there are some tuners that have beefed it up.

> factory launch modes

There is no factory launch mode on R35. That a snow mode that was misused as launch control, that's why nissan yanked warranty.

Your information sounds like what was being said back in 2011, which is to say is misinformed.

I think it is quite the leap to equate stick vs dct to car vs motorcycle.

> Technically, yes, you will put down faster times on a bike.

Motorcycle track rider here. They're generally slower than performance cars around the track due to reduced cornering traction and therefore speed.

The Camaro might also be going away (again) soon.

> Camaro ZL1 is close on performance

Are those 4wd ?

Close on performance in a straight line isn't really close on performance.

Lightning Lap is great and I'm glad C&D does it

You have to read it with some context in mind, though. The Audi RS3 only scores that high because they had a factory option to ship it with 60 Treadwear track day tires.

On the more standard performance tires it dropped to around the ~150 mark on the chart.

Fun car, but I wouldn't put it in the same league for track performance. Put those same 60 Treadwear trackday tires on the GT-R, Mustang, or Supra and they'd all jump up the list too.

I'm confused about what this is trying to say. I assume the Mustang is the "muscle car" and the R35 is the "japanese sports coupe" but in many ways the R35 has been the blunt hammer muscle car of its era.

They're both fantastic cars on the track from all reports. I'm not sure whether you're denigrating the R35 ("just a sports coupe") or the Mustang ("just a muscle car") in that comment.

Also, price and performance benchmarks seem pretty darned important in the worlds these cars play in. We're not talking about minivans or even sport sedans here.

> meta: a bit confused about people comparing a muscle car to a japanese sports coupé.

Your concept of a muscle car is probably outdated if you don’t think they play in the same space. The American sports cars are very formidable

> there's more to a car than price and performance benchmarks.

Those of us who actually get on track do care about this stuff. I’d happily drive an ugly tin can from some obscure country if it performed well, was the right price, and was reliable.

The whole muscle car versus imports debate is more for the armchair car enthusiast and people who hang out in parking lots with their hoods up.

Not even in the same ballpark

Toyota meanwhile have made a point that all the front styling grilles in the Mk5 Supra can be opened up and used to house heat exchangers for tuners.

Nissan simply could’ve never acknowledged it. Instead made a point that the GT-R was untuneable, which to my knowledge, is the only time a car company has claimed such a thing.

> Toyota introduced the manual-transmission GR Supra partway through 2023, finally putting a clutch pedal in its flagship sports car. It proved relatively popular, accounting for 43% of Supras sold in the US in 2023. For 2024, the manual take rate went up by quite a bit—Toyota tells us 65% of Supras sold here in 2024 were manuals.

https://www.motor1.com/news/746173/toyota-supra-manual-take-...

It also could be engineered maintenance.

Fair comment about BMW. So another data point ... Ford also supplied their F150 trucks with plastic oil pans for a number of years. Not sure if that's still the case. But an F150 material decision is going to factor in hard use and reliability. So it's not like this is an insane design decision.

I agree it's suspicious to replace a traditionally metal motor part with plastic, but there's plenty of this history we've gotten past. Consider that people freaked out when intake manifolds started to move to plastic. Now it's quite normal. Even on Japanese motors. The benefits besides cost and weight include the ability to model and mold more complex geometries.

I recently got an 81 Vanagon, it's got all of that except hydraulic steering and low weight, but I only have the two front seats which helps with weight a bit, and it's probably close to a light truck weight, back when they made light trucks. It's a lot of fun. No power steering, no power windows, no power from the engine, but I get to stomp on the throttle all the time.

Later model years added all sorts of bells and whistles like water cooling, power steering, and signs of life from the engine, but who needs that.

That’s right! There’s a reason nearly every city has a club of gutted Miatas.

> rear-wheel drive

meh, I was never a fan of those.

I still remember the day I took an audi quattro (not mine, a car like that was way out of my league financially back then) for the first time up a mountain pass road near my home in the 80s.

What an effing rush that was.

Strongly agree for the rest of the list though and would add: "mechanical handbrake" to the list.

These days cars have ugly little electronic handbrakes with a LED on it, what a load of shite.

Ah, that joy. Had it crossing the Atlas mountain in Morocco, in a 35 HP FWD car. Low weight and simplicity, that's the key. Yeah, that won't return any time soon.

At the border crossing, we shared the queue with two of the five teams (according to Wikipedia) participating in the first ever 4L Trophy. When I'm gone (well, when we're gone, me and my peers at the time), those memories will be gone, it's how it is.

I prefer NA but I can have a lot of joy with a proper turbo or two, or a supercharger. There’s a big difference between a turbo used to pass emissions standards and one installed for fun

Depends on where you're at.

My girlfriend's car is currently awaiting a new engine at the dealership. It'd take about 30 years to build up the infrastructure in my city (a major one in the Lower Midwest) to get to where it would need to be for her to not need anything other than public transit, and that's assuming nothing else changes (like even further urban sprawl) and that we had the political will to start today - we don't.

Maybe in Europe, Asia, and a select few North American cities it'll be dead, but there will still be plenty of places where it's necessary.

It’s difficult to argue against that, and I think I agree. A part of me considers it the right way for the world, considering that driving is one of the most dangerous things we partake in regularly, that it should be demoted to just a hobby. But I have reservations about that too. I’m trying to stay (maybe out of delusion) hopeful that driving will still matter and be enjoyable.

I think tuning needs a readjustment in perception. We’ve removed one way to tune, power, and I guess it’s more difficult to get excited about suspension geometry or alignment or handling balance vs a big shiny Garrett turbo, but the fact is we’re still talking about boxes with four wheels at the bottom. Tuning is, and always has been, about how to make a car use those tyres to their full effect.

The GT-R, as impressive as it was, also had its detractors for being a computer on wheels. Car lovers have always disliked techy cars and longed for simpler driving experiences. I know people who still insist carbs are better. I don’t see why the Plaid couldn’t have made Porsche miserable in all the same ways the GT-R did.

The problem here is that the Plaid is not the fastest car. On Nürburgring Nordschleife, GT-R (2013) is faster than the latest Plaid record(2023) by 6 seconds, top trim Taycan by 18 seconds, slower than the fastest on Wikipedia by 56 seconds, etc etc.

It's just not that fast. Most people here wouldn't know that, after hearing 2.1 seconds 0-60, "the fastest production EV", so on. No, Elon just never made that work. literally couldn't beat 10 years old car.

You can buy the cheapest R35 used, and theoretically faster on the ring than ANY Tesla.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nords...