Discovery of fresco portraying Dionysian mysteries at Pompeii
pompeiisites.org
pompeiisites.org
In 186 BC a famous senatus consultum prohibited the cult of the god and prosecuted transgressors. Numerous places of worship were destroyed and even death sentences followed. In Pompeii, a sanctuary dedicated to the god and dating back to the middle of the third century BC remained in operation until the end of the city, in 79 AD and Pompeii always showed a fervent and growing devotion to the mysterious manifestations of the god.”
https://www.classicult.it/pompei-una-megalografia-dionisiaca...
And more from Wikipedia on the cult and its violent suppression—nearly 7000 killed.
Fun times, except they'd occasionally rip dudes limb from limb along with the local fauna.
There's actually an epic called the Dionysiaca, about Dionysius, that's longer than the Iliad and Odyssey combined. I think there's still only one English translation of it but it's pretty interesting. It has a story of Dionysius being reborn that might be related to this.
- Accorinti, D. 2020. "Did Nonnus Really Want to Write a 'Gospel Epic?' The Amabiguous Genre of the _Paraphrase of the Gospel According to John._ In Hadjittofi, F. and Lefteratou, A. eds. _The Genres of Late Antique Christian Poetry_. Berlin: De Gruyter. 225–48.
- Accorinti, D. 2016. _Brill's Companion to Nonnus of Panopolis._ Leiden: Brill.
- Hadjittofi F. 2020. "The Poet and the Evangelist in Nonnus' Paraphrase of the Gospel According to John." Cambridge Classical Journal 66: 70–95.
I live in a very old home, built by a wealthy man almost 200 years ago. The cost to rehabilitate this property was staggering and I had to pay extra to get foreign workmen to fly in who had the skillset necessary to do the work properly. If you have the money and appreciate aesthetics, living in an ornate home that is beautiful inside and out is a pleasure.
The Scandinavian modern minimalist style is so anathema to me, it goes against everything we as humans appreciate. Classical style, Greek columns, open spaces, ornate decoration. The ancients understood this and modernity forgot what these styles provide to the human psyche.
I see these monstrosities for sale in the $5 million+ range that wealthy Americans build as new construction. You don’t need or want ~10,000 sqft. You want livable space that gives you emotional resonance. You need a home that is pleasing to work in, relax in, sleep in, view externally and internally. I think modern society has forgotten so many things. You can build things for the same cost that reflect these ideals but for whatever reason we don’t anymore.
Every room in my house has a vibe. I care very deeply about the vibes of every single location. The walls, the art, the motifs, how it appears as you walk up the frontage, enter the vestibule, the space, what it means. Guests to my home sense this instantly. I can’t express the pleasure I get from living in a house I have perfectly created to my exact intention.
Some people argue it is financially beneficial to rent vs. own. I argue the benefit of owning, having exact precision and control over every aspect of the surroundings you spend the majority of your life in, far surpasses whatever benefit not investing money into your own home can provide. I want every moment to be surrounded by pleasurable aesthetics as much as I can.
More important than decoration though for me is the quality of the architecture, the quality of the space it self - light, human-scale, how you move through the spaces, outlook and views etc
I think people like to go into cathedrals, museums, travel around Europe, and experience the old world because it resonates with them spiritually and emotionally. I live in my own version of beauty, which is rare today, but I think far more people would prefer to live how I do than the current paradigm. I view minimalism as shorthand for “cheap” that society has foisted upon us in order to cut costs. Everything expensive in terms of time or money that I invest in, I do because of the value it provides me
Cheap aesthetics (in the sense of quality and thoughtfulness, not necessarily $), can be either minimalist or ornate.
You might be right about European tourists, though. I appreciate the cathedrals and the like for what they are, but my draw to travel in Europe has more to do with the reminder and humility that comes with doing something so mundane as eating a piece of licorice in a sweets shop that's been in operation longer than my country has (US), or something to that effect. Things like that are great medicine for staying grounded and alleviating symptoms of American Exceptionalism.
For me, in such a decorated place, I get a calming effect on the longer term by just studying the details, which makes my mind not focus on your every day worries (or what stupid thing happens somewhere in the world) but rather on other questions/observations. Then, when I get back to every day worries I can see that maybe my worries were exaggerated, misplaced.
Would you say you get a calming effect from studying the details of a tiktok or facebook feed? Unlikely I expect. Too much going on, too much fighting for attention etc - its draining. I cannot see how people can complain about how "bad" the modern internet is with social media and then decorate their houses the same way?!
Even if a piece by Heironimus Bosch or Pablo Picasso was used as wallpaper, that would be significantly less stimulating than an agloslop content feed.
I am not much of an art expert, but pretty much all art is about that from what I can recall from school?!
Some contemporary artists can try to shock and can engage in "political" statements, but I never saw personally any such thing in a home. And, anyhow when you talk with such artists the points their trying to make are so convoluted you need to know all (art) history to get what they are trying to say... (which I didn't so they had to explain it)
Speak for yourself.
If that works for you thats fine, but to many Europeans this looks very cheap and bland copy, like building a stone medieval castle in suburban US. Having 'greek columns' anywhere apart where they were built 2000 years ago is tasteless to me for example.
Also there is huge room between ornate and minimalist, where most people fall re design taste. I'd say minimalist is for folks who derive their happiness from other aspects of their lives compared to real estate, which is generally a good approach regardless.
But thats us Europeans, we like originality and appreciate and respect utmostly where it came from, be it food or culture.
so all the revivals are tacky? e.g. all buildings of importance before 1920 in american and european cities are tacky?
I envy the artists who have a sense of style in their living spaces, but also I gradually emptied my childhood room as I grew up as I could not stand the clutter — or jut the cleaning part.
Then you have to consider that the majority of people have absolutely no taste and a minimal home is their best bet at tasteful living spaces. The second choice would probably be green walls and red couches.
Edit: link fixed
Sounds an awful lot like Christianity.
I remember growing up, pastors lecturing me that "no other religion is like Christianity".
It would appear there are a lot of similarities to contemporary cults.
> the frieze can be dated to the 40s-30s BC
> In antiquity, there were a series of cults, including the cult of Dionysus, that were only accessible to those who performed an initiation ritual, as illustrated in the Pompeian frieze. They were known as “mystery cults” because their secrets could only be known by initiates. The cults were often linked to the promise of a new blissful life, both in this world and in the afterlife.
How related are the ideas of Christianity to these mystery cults?
Christianity certainly had mystery cults, but so did all of the other Mediterranean religions, including its immediate ancestor Judaism.
It's hard to tell how much Christianity cribbed from other religions and how much is just the same idea recurring over and over because it's a common human theme.
Your pastors were wrong to say that Christianity is totally unprecedented. But neither is it just a cynical pastiche of existing ideas. It arose out of the time and place that surrounded its creation. Like all human ideas it's a blend of old and new thoughts.
It certainly isn't beyond criticism, but it's points are substantive and well referenced, giving the reader enough scope to tackle the controversial points themselves, not just take the authors presentation on face value.
Christianity was somewhat unique to the middle east in believing that there would be a final resurrection and earthly paradise, versus simply being reborn as a god, having a more comfortable underworld existence, etc...
As for Dionysus, he was more of an Osiris-figure... Resurrected from pieces in the underworld and his death-rebirth was associated with the seasons especially the growing and harvest of wine. The practices of the cult was to enter an ecstatic frenzy while drinking wine (probably laced with psychedelics). If he did influence Christianity it would be to the same degree as Osiris, Horus, Inanna or other similar deities. But IMO Christianity probably derived from dharmic religions (the Buddha was known to early Christians...). But that's another topic.
I think the final resurrection concept mostly comes from Judaism, where the Messiah will come and resurrect the people of Israel.
The NT arose in a Hellenistic context, but the OT was inherently anti-Egypt and that's where you'll see more direct references (Book of Exodus, ten plagues, etc.)
By the Apostolic Age/early Church, Egyptian deities were syncretized and interpreted by the Greeks, and Egypt was a safer place to hang out during the Massacre of the Innocents. But Jesus returned home with all the Moses we'd ever need.
Isn't that a tautology? LDS, JWs, Messianic Jews, Oneness Pentecostals, Iglesia ni Cristo: are they Christianity or another religion? How different can a religion be until it isn't "like Christianity"? Soundbite doing some heavy lifting out of context.
The NT writers used Koine Greek to evangelize a Hellenistic world. Anybody from a pagan tradition reading those books could've found aspects of Dionysus in Jesus, and because Greek Paganism wasn't untrue but simply incomplete, bound to a territory and lacking in universality.
Pagans personify and explain nature and the supernatural through deities, while for Christians, the Holy Trinity is the lens through which we see all truth, beauty and goodness.
It is delightfully weird, though, in a "we have polytheism at home" kind of way.
You're confusing “additions/accretions to doctrine” with the way the Church worked in reality. Doctrines and dogmas were believed but not defined or formulated until heresies and controversies arose.
The definition of a doctrine is a final way to settle a controversy in favor of orthodox belief. The definition of the Holy Trinity was simply when the reality was put into human words.
Lest we forget that the Church produced Scripture, because it seems like folly for this to be turned upside down, but for 500 years, Scripture has begotten churches.
For that matter, they can't even all agree on the name of their primary deity, and I think one might be forgiven if they were to confuse the many names as not "many names of a single deity", but "many names for many deities".
Also (more interestingly) there's still evidence in the OT of the time when the religious precursor of Judaism was polytheist[2][3] ("let us create Man in our image", "God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.")
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Olaf
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahwism
[3]https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4nys70/what_...
From within mainstream Christianity, ancestor worship [communion of saints] and worship of the Mother of God [Marian devotion] and adoration of God himself are three categories, and the former two are different not in degree, but in character and quality entirely.
Internal squabbles among Christian sects often come down to semantics, definitions, and what language is used to formulate them, because when you change the language, you shift cultures and meanings shift inexorably.
So while it was once called "worship of Mary", for example, we don't use that word anymore, because even the same English word has connotations for people that would be misunderstood.
One interesting paradigm shift to consider is the extension of familial relations beyond the genetic. Christian succession is not by birth but by transmission, anointing, and laying on of hands. Every religious order is a family unto themselves. And so, out of blood and water, the faith has forged familial bonds that are thicker than both. I don't know about neopaganism, but classical paganism was tribal, territorial, and ethnocentric.
Another is the naturalistic cycles of the pagan calendars vs. the humanist and person-centered cycles for Christians. We celebrate saints, actual human beings, personal accomplishments and sanctity, and while they're undeniably still linked to the land, the heavens, seasons and agrarianism, Christianity elevates the human person above nature (and "a little less than the angels"), and places humans front-and-center in everything we dream of in our philosophy, for better or for worse.
Just google how the Christmas tree came to be or better yet Christmas itself... the Bible is also just an anthology, a politically (!) hand-picked collection of texts, from various streams which fit the interests of the dominant sect at the time (400+ years after Jesus!).
Also... "Christianity began as an outgrowth of Second Temple Judaism,..." [1]
It's all related.
These pastors should go back to school; they should have gotten education about other religions in their training so that they fully understand the origins, similarities and differences between them. They should know the origins of their own religion, like how the date of Christmas was established in the 4th century based on the date of the winter solstice in the Roman Empire.
These pastors are reciting dogma instead of learning.
Even if Jesus was born on Christmas, it is undeniable that having a similar dated holiday to co-opt is a marketing win. Other overlaps exist with stories thousands of years older, including virgin births, death and resurrection, and dying for humanity.
Alexandria and Antioch were far more influential centers of Christian theology and scholarship, where Jewish (and related?) and Coptic calendars were the point of reference. Moreover, during this time Christian theologians were adamant about not mixing pagan Greek and Roman practices with Christian practices. And let's not forget the persecutions. The Roman calendar and the dates of its festivals were largely irrelevant to them in terms of establishing mythological dates or community festivals. And the nativity just wasn't a very important date--and never important enough to be an origin for other dates--to Christians until much later, long after a rough consensus on dates had been established. Theologically the annunciation (conception of Christ) was vastly more important, second only to easter.
There's significant substantive evidence for these dates being established independent of the Roman festival, based on transparent and consistent rationales. The only real evidence for the date being chosen because of the Roman festival is basically a curious coincidence that stands out as significant from a Western European cultural perspective, rooted in a Roman centric historical narrative, by those living many centuries later. The coincidence feels particularly strong and intuitive in modern times, where Christmas is seemingly synonymous with Christianity. Plus, much of the modern narrative regarding the origins of Christmas arises from attempts by Protestantism to delegitimize Roman Catholicism, without appreciating that during this time the church in Rome wasn't nearly as preeminent as they would become [long] after Constantine. The conception of Catholicism as a religion dictated by clergy in Rome who could successfully scheme to set a date for Christmas comes largely from the Middle Ages, after the Great Schism with Constantinople, when Rome no longer had to justify itself to any of the other early Christian churches. This image was later reinforced and refined by Protestantism literally attempting to paint the Catholic church as a malevolently scheming institution.
Now, the spring dates for the annunciation and death of Christ... you could easily trace it back to pagan origins, but rooted in semitic culture, not Roman or even Greek. The sources spell this out for you; no need to connect the dots.
[1] In some instances the dates were mentioned alongside alternative opinions that were significantly different (some web articles seem to mention only these non-concordant alternatives), but that's beside the point. The point is that the relevant dates were rooted at a time when most Christians couldn't care less about the Roman festival, except in so far as they wanted to avoid any conflation.
But isn't that more or less the point? I was raised in that tradition (evangelical) and the more you dig, the more you find the "simple stuff" isn't quite so 100% true or reliable, has a pretty convoluted history, etc.. Which makes you wonder and doubt and question, and for me, after seeing what N.A. evangelicalism is promoting these days, de-convert. And I know I'm not the only one who followed that path - many who wanted "a deeper understanding of it all" ended up deconverting because the "truths" they were taught weren't quite so true after all.
By NOT teaching the historical details and just telling pastors the "high school summary" at seminary (in the same way that high school students aren't taught full quantum mechanics, but still study the basic theories of atoms, electrons, orbitals, ...), they can 100% believe and probably be more effective. If they 100% believe you're going to hell, they will work very hard to save you. If they're "well, the Bible borrowed this from these 3 other religions and integrated it over time and the current theories are different from what they were 30 years ago", they might not be as fervent and also be less convincing if they admit their doubts to you. Which might also cause you to question, study more, deconvert, etc. And there is a huge percentage of people who WANT concrete yes/no hard-line answers to difficult questions so they can stop thinking about it.
That said, we don't know exactly what rituals the earliest Christians practiced and to outsiders they may have looked similar to the rituals of the mystery cults. Especially since Christians at times were persecuted all over the Roman empire and therefore may have had to keep a low profile.
Christians are the first major belief system we know of that declares not only that it is universal for all humans, but that if you don't believe/practice its specific faith you are damned, and that it is the duty of every Christian to convert others to the faith. This is one of the reasons why many in pre-Constantine Rome found it so objectionable and disruptive.
Islam obviously followed in the same tradition.
Various strands of Christianity go even further, making your practices almost entirely irrelevant and the inside of your thoughts being the key determinant on whether you are eternally damned or not. Ancient belief systems were very concerned about rituals and practices and sacrifices etc, vs e.g. strains of modern evangelical Protestantism that is obsessed with your feelings/thoughts/internal mental state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9387_BC)
Pompeii and Herculaneum are identified as “having joined insurgents” (see color coded map)!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii#The_Roman_period
Fewer than 180 years before the catastrophic eruption of Mt. Vesuvius, Pompeii and Campania had been subjugated by Republican armies after their rebellious insurrection.
Here, have a erudite post-punk music video (1986) about the eruption: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=wsOHvP1XnRg&si=kNoAj2scal8...
I have to put in a plug for all the craftsmen (and women?) who did the tile inlay work on those floors. I've seen lots of pictures of mosaic floors and I am always impressed by the skills of the artists who created those designs and how they were able to use colored bits of rock to craft intricate portraits that have lasted millenia.
In the last photo of the series you see one of my favorites. The section between columns depicting fish in the four corners with the circular design using hexagonal symmetry shows how they were able to combine elements with entirely different symmetries and the fish, which were mirrored corner to corner, and do it coherently. I would love to see a photo of the individual tile work. The only thing that drives me nuts about that element is the placement of the two columns. The artist should've scaled the design to fit between the columns so that the column on the right overlaps the outside black boundary the same as the left column.
I'm thinking that they used a bottom-up building technique where the walls are established and then the floors are laid first and then after the walls are complete they add a roof so that the column placement comes into play later in the building process. This means that the motif is likely complete under those columns instead of the floor being tiled up to the columns.
The section between the columns to the left of the fishes is a really nice intricate design incorporating small equilateral triangles with a central strip that appears to have some Greek lettering, perhaps the letters phi or psi. I can't make it out.
Does anyone have an idea about the methods and materials used for roof construction? I suspect that timbers were used as you can see at the tops of the walls how they would've been spaced by the layout of openings that I think would've held the ends of large timber beams just above the dark painted columns on the wall. The stone columns appear to line up with the nooks so that one can picture something akin to a coffered ceiling design where the timbers, since they are oriented with their widest sides horizontally instead of the stronger vertical orientation, needed the column support at intervals to prevent collapse.
I also can appreciate the level of detail work that went into the motif that used the squares cut by a small black diagonal on a 45 degree angle so that the design is a combination of squares and right triangles. The thin diagonals are made using individual black tiles and the triangles are infilled with similar sized white tiles. It's a really nice geometric design that would've been easy to lay out and execute if the materials were consistently cut. I can imagine the materials list that the tile crew would get and how specific the designer would be about tile dimensions.
I've done a bit of tile work in the houses that we've owned and tried to make each special. Tiling is a lot like needlepoint in that you are laying things out on a precise grid and everything in the design has a specific location and orientation and the sizing of elements really is important to avoid visual artifacts that will draw the eye of someone like myself whose eyes are magnetically drawn to imperfections. I see all the defects all the time. That character defect made me a nice career doing QC work though I know that some people hated to discover that I was the one checking their work. I get it. It's hard being me sometimes and harder to work with me most times.
They have taken care to place their post jacks on a surface elevated above the original floor level to avoid disturbing the rest of the layout.
There's an interview held in front: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK6pisszEyo
and there are other articles with more detailed images: https://www.classicult.it/pompei-una-megalografia-dionisiaca...