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Comment by sepositus | Hacker News Reader

Funny, I’m literally seeing the opposite. Had two people move from the EU last year due to free speech concerns.

One doesn't preclude the other, but I have serious doubts about free speech concerns. There are moderate and extreme movements in Europe. They all express themselves freely within the law.

blink... They outlawed silent prayer.

The UK left EU some years ago.

No worries though, Germany is raiding peoples houses for offending people online. Please spare me the "only for Holocaust deniers" thing.

I'm sorry but it's normal. You don't have the right to offend people online or not.

You can’t have free speech without being able to offend. And you can’t have democracy without free speech.

Yes, but in this case, there's nothing to stop you from apologizing and possibly discuss the offending point so that it doesn't happen again.

What you just said offends my beliefs in fundamental human right to free speech.

Who do I call to press charges?

I sincerely apologize again if you found my response offensive. You can contact your local police to make a complaint, I suppose.

I find this extremely offensive.

I'm sorry. I'm open to discussion if you can explain what is offending to you

What's normal? You just offended a whole group of people and probably had no intention of doing it. You're proving the point on why the whole thing doesn't work. You should get your comment removed if you seriously believe this to be true and want to avoid being hypocritical.

I'm sorry if you feel offended. My comments will be removed by HN moderators if they think it's necessary. You can flag and downvote them meanwhile. You can also contact the moderators or your local police if you think it is necessary.

EDIT: It might not be possible to flag or downvote comments. So, I recommend you to contact the moderators or your local police. You can find my name and address on my GitHub profile.

I have no interest in pressing charges against you or getting you in trouble. That would be hypocritical of me and contrary to my beliefs. I was simply pointing out how easy it is to offend people on the internet and why it simply doesn't work at scale. If no one has the right to say something potentially offensive on the internet, then the whole thing needs to be shut down.

Thank you for explaining your point of view on the interest of this conversation. Here's mine, I consider an offense to be something quite subjective sometimes. In some cases, it's possible to offend someone without meaning to. The solution to this problem is to apologize and offer to talk about it. If that doesn't work, and the offense is in some way "forbidden", then the offended person can simply defend themselves by going to the “authorities”.

Of course, we’re probably seeing the normal amount of movement when administrations shift. I work for a global company and have only witnessed the EU to US movement. I’m sure both are happening.

And how are they doing now?

Anyway I’m sure people can be in whatever bubble their algorithmic news gives them. At the end of the day, today, it’s shameful to be American and many of my American friends feel that shame right now. The same cannot be said for most European countries.

> Anyway I’m sure people can be in whatever bubble their algorithmic news gives them

> it’s shameful to be American and many of my American friends feel that shame right now. The same cannot be said for most European countries.

So you're proposing you are immune to a bubble? One of the people I referenced was _literally_ ashamed of the German government. It's happening on both sides.

I find the whole thing odd, to be honest. I had a ton of disagreements with the prior administration, and I think the way many things were handled was "shameful." However, I never once felt "ashamed" of being American. Administrations come and go. The will of the people is fickle and changes like the wind.

Last year is a bit different to this year no ?

Free speech concerns in the EU go like:

- You can't call people pedophiles unless it was proven in court.

- You can't say black people are inferior.

- You can't say Israel is doing a genocide.

and only one of these is a valid thing to be worried about IMO...

How about I see an interesting street hustler in Munich and put a photo of him on my blog? If something like that is illegal I'd quickly find our two cultures are absolutely incompatible with my continued residence.

I see - you think harassment and privacy violation is free speech.

Please stay away from Europe.

Cool so now free speech is reduced to anything not viewed as harassment. I think I will take your advice, that's dystopic and far worse than just your prior bullet points.

You can also just ask him if it's OK to do that and they're probably going to be OK with it.

And otherwise you simply ensure that you have more than IIRC 5? people in the photo because taking and publishing a photo of a group of people is not illegal.

Privacy and not being harassed and free speech are of course exactly where the rubber meets the road. There is an intersection and naturally people will have differing opinions as to where the line should be drawn. One can always come up with examples where favoring free speech will lead to really bad outcomes for someone and vice versa.

Uh, it's reduced to things that are not harassment. Who said "viewed as"? Are you trying to make everything subjective, so you can argue all opinions about harassment are equally valid?

This is like saying the US's gun law is "reduced" to everything "viewed as" the right to keep and bear arms. I don't think you can legally own a nuclear missile anywhere in the US, even in Texas.

Which part of taking someone's picture is speech, anyway? I didn't see that in the first amendment.

Ban on nukes is an infringement but not as egregious as the ones in Europe. In another comment I admit for instance Yemen and Idlib have a stronger right to bear arms than the US. I absolutely acknowledge this.

US also has free speech issues. For instance, libel has civil penalties I disagree with. However not being able to post a photo I took of someone in public for me is completely intolerable and barbaric, and a harassment against people exercising right to free speech. Opinions differ so I'm pretty pleased with Germany doing their thing and me doing mine and never stepping foot on their soil.

Do you find that not being able publish a book someone else wrote is an infringement on free speech?

I agree that you should stay in the USA and let everyone else go to Europe.

Well, according to the two sources I'm familiar with, it's not necessarily the _current_ laws that are the most concerning, but rather the _direction_ things are heading.

In the past it was like:

- You can't call people pedophiles unless it was proven in court.

- You can't say black people are inferior.

Since October 2023 it's like:

- You can't call people pedophiles unless it was proven in court.

- You can't say black people are inferior.

- You can't say Israel is doing a genocide.

And has remained there since. Is this what worries you?

History proves limiting free speech is a slippery slope. I can't speak for my EU friends, but for me, yes, it's very concerning to begin justifying why some speech is not OK.

In the USA you can't say "I want to blow up this plane" in an airport, so the slope has already begun.

The interesting things is how that list is growing, not shrinking.

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