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Comment by BoingBoomTschak | Hacker News Reader

This whole unhealthy obsession with form over substance (music) really is peak 21th century materialism. Sony's and Philips' engineers must be turning in their graves.

Disregarding the hipster crowd, so many of these "fiddlers" also have such a laughably mundane and insipid taste clashing strongly with their proffered love for music that an outside viewer can't help but raise an eyebrow; I mean, when your musical world is made of Steely Dan, Diana Krall, Neil Young, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, etc...

It's just the man equivalent of collecting porcelain figurines, but with an ad hoc rationalization (it really sounds better!) to protect the ego. Related to Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

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People easily overlook the most important part to me of playing vinyl, and get distracted by the "it sounds better" conversation. To me, it is the physicalness of holding the vinyl, watching/reading the grooves, setting the needle, lifting the needle, rinse/repeat for each track you want to listen (assuming using singles). There's much more satisfaction when you're actively doing things to keep the music playing (even if not a DJing) rather than clicking some infinite stream where you just tune out of even paying attention to the music. Playing vinyl forces your attention. That's when you start to become a real music nerd type by learning which cut of the release a song was on, which side of the vinyl, etc.

That might not be what most people care about, and that's fine. They have infinite streaming available for those that just need background noise. But to write vinyl off as a gear acquisition syndrome just screams to me someone doesn't really get it and wants to find a way to mock someone else

That sounds too easy, real music nerd types carve their own vinyls at home. Realer music nerds build machines that carve vinyls. Realerer music nerds work in mines that supply metal (no pun intended) for those machine parts etc. And I'm just a wanker with Spotify and rate your music that accelerated my taste and education in music 1000x times.

Album art for 12-inch LPs is fabulous.

CD packaging with jewel cases was a major step down in experience because of size and also because of the inconvenience of getting the booklets out of the case; good CD packaging experiences were exceedingly rare.

Art for streaming is a different medium altogether, as it is behind a screen but potentially dynamic; it can achieve new things, but can't replicate the LP experience any more than photographs can reproduce sculptures.

The Black Crowes Southern Harmony and Musical Companion is the size of a jewel case, but cardboard like an LP cover, and folds out to reveal an extra six segments as well as front and back covers. (Five have pictures, the other one holds the CD.) So that's a good effort, but fundamentally LPs are a more satisfying size for looking at.

Those are details not improving the music itself; even if cool auxiliary aspects, sometimes. You can listen to full albums intently even when using a digital system. In fact, do you truly care if you have to be physically constrained into doing so?

I'll sound very smug, but so be it: this is a trap very easy to fall in. Are you a "proper" christian if you only are because you fear hell? Do you care about software freedom if you had to be spoonfed baby duck software that looks and feels just like Windows to switch?

Nothing I said implied improving the music, so I have no idea why you're trying to make the connection. The point I was making is that vinyl is about the medium. The physical nature of constantly changing the record means you're more involved.

I specifically said that claiming it to be a "better sound" is not what I like about vinyl.

So to be very smug, your second graph is absolutely pointless since you've missed the point of the comment you replied

No, I didn't miss anything. If you need to be forced by a physical routine to be "involved", do you truly care about music? Why?

Sorry there’s nuance missing here, I might personally not have any records, but I understand how some people must enjoy it and I can’t judge them. This reads more like ‘not for me, not for thee’ syndrome.

Fair point and maybe I can contribute, as I get the hostility in the tone. It’s in the inherent contradiction of the justification of the pursuit, from a music appreciation standpoint. Vinyl does not sound better, and many of the legacy artists mentioned didn’t record great quality (sounding) material in the modern era. It’s most definitely a “splurge” of wastefulness under a decidedly erroneous claim.

Yes I see what you mean, with hobbies sometimes better costs is equal to better quality (probably not in a linear sense). Records are not that, but ig there’s other examples like old cars that fit the same profile. Really the root question might be, what is better quality? There’s definitely a quality of experience with physical media that there isn’t an analog to in the digital world. I’m sure there are other examples on both sides.

> Vinyl does not sound better

Have you listened to vinyl on a good system? I have trouble believing anybody who says this has ever listened to a decent record on a decent stereo.

Not all vinyl sounds better in my system. Some really is crap. But when I directly compare, and all other things are equal (or seem to be), vinyl normally sounds better than digital.

This is more often true of more recent records, too, though some of Deutsche Grammophone's Archive Production records from even the 50s sound astonishingly good.

I understand that objectively vinyl doesn't measure as well as CD, but I'll be damned if it doesn't sound better. My partner thinks it does, too, and she has no patience for audiophile nonsense.

> though some of Deutsche Grammophone's Archive Production records from even the 50s sound astonishingly good.

For what it is, i.e. a rock being dragged through a groove. But I'm very surprised to see this used as example, since orchestral music is the worst case scenario for vinyl: the reduced dynamic range makes good reproduction of those peaks simply impossible (labels like BIS would never have been able to engineer their magic such as on this CD - see the warning on the cover - https://www.discogs.com/release/16832175-Carl-Nielsen-Gothen...) and the surface noise really impacts the quieter moments.

Don't get me wrong, some CDs were brickwalled while the corresponding LP got a way saner master (e.g. Celtic Frost's Monotheist), but with similar masters, CD simply always wins as a medium. In this case, I digitize the LP while its surface wear is at its lowest.

Very excellent citation and explanation - one of my main attractions to drum & bass over the years has been the amazing capitalization upon dynamic range possible with modern systems. Why would I listen to Sub Focus on vinyl when the corresponding digital file (even 320 kbps - not to even mention “lossless” being somewhat possible) does not suffer from physical interface complications? I’m glad you brought up mastering and the “loudness wars” who CB is absolutely great reading for those interested in audiophile related endeavors!

Sound being a highly subjective term, I will grant vinyl can sound “warmer” on an A/B test but it does not sound “better” as a standing point. Every system “colors” sound to a certain degree - a la Beats headphones artificially enhancing the bass profile to suit market fit - but when talking quality, no, vinyl is still a problematic medium. Source: 20 years of audio production spanning tape to modern tools, and opinions based on experience and qualitative analysis where possible.

I'd say the whole Baroque movement in the 17th century was form over substance too but not necessarily linked to our definition of materialism. At least they knew how to play instruments back then...

I now see that I didn't understood your comment. Yeah, the vinyl form was interesting back then (because it was cheap) but it sounds like shit to me now. But you see this everywhere a company sees a trend and exploit it: anime figures, nostalgia, ... You can't do anything about it anyway, I gave up on that a long time ago. I draw the line where the whole music itself is disconnected from what you are trying to achieve (treating it as fast food, buying manga in Japanese without being able to read Japanese, any kind of collecting that you don't have the skills to experience...)

One last thing though. You can have better music than all the CDs in the world if you are looking for a private or concert experience. It all depends on what you seek. Woodstock guys thought they would change the world (and they did in their own way), and the Beatles got their own spiritual/mystical experience in India (which George Harrison used to add the sitar in some songs).

You’re way overthinking it.

I go to a show. There’s maybe 50 people in a dark, dingy room. I want to support the band so I buy a shirt and a record from the merch table.

Sometimes I’m right by the record store so I stop and browse. I see an LP for an album I like, either used or new. I buy it.

Now I have a stack of records. I go home and play records. I still use Spotify.

I never experienced that but some people do enjoy it, and it's fine as long as it's not a temporary obsession (but that's still my debatable opinion).

I remember my aunt saying that she went to a Santana concert in the 70s. She only remembered that "there was a lot of smoke in the room." Did it change her forever? Maybe not, only she knows. But even single experiences can have long-lasting effects that, I'm sure, we'll never be capable of sharing fully.

I was about to criticize your comment for unnecessary mean-spiritedness, but then I remembered that I don't have the moral high ground.

I once stayed with wealthy tech CEO whose had a very expensive MacIntosh-based stereo, plus some rather expensive looking speakers. His musical library? Grateful Dead, Chicago, Neil Young.

The guy gets the enjoy what he enjoys. More power to him. I just can't imagine spending so much for, musically, so very, very little.

The Dead, at least, were a band that absolutely pushed the limits of sound engineering in concerts as well as encouraging incredibly elaborate concert recording setups. The wall of sound, and the entire culture of high quality live recordings by 3rd parties is a huge part of their popularity.

Why wouldn’t you want to listen to them on a nice system?

That's a good point. I withdraw my criticism and admit my error.

> Why wouldn’t you want to listen to them on a nice system?

They just aren't my cup of tea.

Gotcha.

What it comes down to is that for a lot of people, operating and owning certain equipment is what gives them joy. You see this in a lot, maybe all, of hobbies and pleasure. It’s like the guy who spends $1k on a 3d printer to make trinkets that you can buy at the dollar store.

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