Waterfox: Fast and Private Web Browser | Hacker News Reader

Waterfox: Fast and Private Web Browser

waterfox.net

139 pointsdoener67 comments

I really enjoy seeing new projects, especially now with Mozilla's updated TOS, but this project's page really bothers me!

Why include a feature comparison table with browsers like Chrome and Edge, but leave out Firefox? Your project is built on Firefox, and you even borrowed half of its name. Attribution matters. If Mozilla were to shut down Firefox and all its users left, would Waterfox even survive?

Yeah, reading this page with no mention of Firefox feels a bit weird - I was asking myself the whole time what the relationship is. All I needed was something saying "a privacy-preserving fork of Firefox" or similar to put that to bed so I could concentrate on the rest of the content.

Mozilla have made legal threats in the past about mentioning ANYTHING to do with Firefox.

So I steer well clear.

The irony(?) being we used to be listed on the Mozilla website :) https://web.archive.org/web/20121229210505/http://www.mozill...

I’m pretty sure it’s completely legal to mention trademarks when comparing your product to others.

Are you backing that up with financial support if they get sued by overzealous lawyers?

I had solicitors involved, they basically said you are in the right, but they have more money. Not a hill worth dying on.

Oracle is pretty famous for suing everyone willing to publish benchmarks or comparisons of Oracle DB.

Thank you for maintaining this, glad to see it's still going. It was funny to see Mozilla fumble their policy update while apparently trying to be vague.

I see your headline features are anti-tracking, private tabs, and container tabs, but do you still do any performance optimizations beyond Firefox, either in code or by compiler?

Ah, I see you mention this for 6.5.0:

"We have now bumped the “tuned” CPU code generation to match Skylake2 processor instruction sets. This should result in better performance if you have an Intel Skylake (or equivalent AMD processor) or better."

Do you continue to see some measurable performance improvements in WF over FF thanks to compiler optimizations?

Wish you the best with your v7.0 build system.

I don't know how they can sue for mentioning their product and that's very scummy behavior

..as well as Brave browser

We were working with azure bing 7 for API search had issues switched to Brave working so far. The results don't match but yeah (looking for PDFs).

brave is crypto snake-oil

Waterfox isn't new, its first release was in 2011. I used to run it because they had an x86-64 build when Firefox didn't.

You're absolutely right but attribution is still the core issue here. I clicked on the page because it seemed like a promising alternative to Firefox, and I expected the focus to be on how it differs from Firefox. Instead, I was surprised to see Firefox completely ignored, especially when the project is clearly built on its foundation and even borrows part of its name. It feels like a missed opportunity to acknowledge the very platform that made Waterfox possible in the first place. Transparency and credit matter, especially in open-source projects.

You aren't wrong, at all, but as mentioned I have run into issues with this in the past. I don't have enough income for the rigmarole Mozilla would put us through, even though I attempted in the past.

FWIW in regards to features: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43206110

Thanks for keeping Waterfox alive despite Mozilla's hurdles. The feature list is great, exactly what people need when looking for a Firefox alternative. Putting it on the homepage would help a lot. Appreciate your work!

OOC, what's the nature of development? Is it the case that this browser is a set of patches you maintain on top of Firefox trunk, or do you have to do some surgery every time Firefox makes a release? Do you try to keep up with Firefox releases?

Is it a hard fork that's been maintained since 2011 without pulling? Or is it a soft fork that's still pulling from upstream regularly?

If it's the former attribution still matters, but if it's the latter lack of attribution is outright dishonest.

They aren't hiding the fact that they forked, so it's not dishonest. Nobody really expects a fork to never merge again from upstream. The point of it is increased privacy as opposed to improving the browser fundamentally anyway. I don't give a fuck if they do or don't say "we still merge from upstream btw" (and they did hard fork at some point, so I highly doubt they even try to keep up). This isn't a mere rebranding of Firefox to steal credit.

Waterfox is not new

What I really want to know is the difference between Waterfox, Librewolf, and Palemoon.

Don't forget IceCat!

Not a full comparison, but they do mention Firefox:

> Waterfox is an impressive example of what a better version of Firefox can look like: leaner, faster, and without the desire to collect your data.

I had stopped using Waterfox in 2020 because of their association with System1, an advertising company. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22338321

I learned today that Waterfox cut ties with System1 in July of 2023, so I'm glad to have an alternative to switch to. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36590056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36606210

Is this Firefox rebranded with anything privacy breaking removed?

Personally that is what I want. A minimal set of diffs on top of Firefox that turns off anything obnoxious Mozilla might (or might not) add, but is close enough to the original codebase that it can be updated with security fixes right away

Maybe just an updated user.js would be enough for this goal?

Ah, interesting, I was unaware of user.js

It seems https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js is a comprehensive set of settings for that

It sounds like LibreWolf and Waterfox both fall into this category. Difficult to distinguish much between the two.

There's a 2yo reddit thread [0] in which the Waterfox founder claims that Waterfox balances privacy with usability, and has the advantage of an auto-update feature. This could be outdated as I just installed LibreWolf and there definitely was an auto-update option in the installation dialog.

There's also an article on OnionEngine [1] which compares the two. According to this, Waterfox has support for legacy add-ons, but unlike LibreWolf does not necessarily disable trackers by default. Hard to see how up to date the article is.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/waterfox/comments/14seevh/comment/j...

[1] https://onionengine.io/blog/waterfox-vs-librewolf/

By the sounds of it, if you have a strong privacy prefence and don't mind compromising usability for the sake of privacy, Libre Wolf may be the better bet.

Librewolf portable [0] is available via the PortableApps.com launcher, which is great for keeping it from scattering files everywhere or for carrying it on a USB drive for Win32/Wine users. Waterfox Classic used to be available, but that stopped a long time ago, and the new Waterfox was never available, to my knowledge. Additionally, the portable version of Librewolf, while lagging slightly as most portable editions do, is updated fairly frequently.

This is why I ended up choosing Librewolf - I prefer to have more control over where files are stored on the Windows platform. I also took the extra step of creating the TempForPortableApps [1] folder as well.

[0] https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/librewolf-portable

[1] https://portableapps.com/support/platform#advanced

That's a great shout. Portable versions of apps are really useful if you want to sync tools e.g. over syncthing/pCloud/Dropbox, or you work for companies with draconian installation policies.

The modern version of Waterfox does not support legacy addons.

There's a Waterfox Classic, which does, but even that is mostly obsolete these days (add-ons may work, but many websites don't). And I don't think it's getting regular security updates.

I understand that people need alternatives that work now but please consider contributing your developer expertise and/or donating to Ladybird[0] / Servo[1]. We need to get away from our current engine duopoly of Chromium/Gecko (yes I know webkit exists)

[0]: https://ladybird.org

[1]: https://servo.org

No Windows version? Really? Wow!

Not initially. Once they have a codebase capable of reliably rendering the web, I'm sure they will explore porting it to Windows.

How do we actually know these browser forks don't contain malware of their own? If you can hide something in a tiny package like xz-utils... and a browser would seem to be a very juicy target.

Possible, but Waterfox has been out there long enough that I'd think someone would have picked up on it by now. Especially with it being marketed as a more secure Firefox.

EDIT: I'm not the one that downvoted the op. Not sure why it's getting heat, it's a valid question.

> but Waterfox has been out there long enough that I'd think someone would have picked up on it by now.

lol that doesn't mean anything. it's good that it's open source, but time unfortunately is not an indicator since it doesn't necessarily imply anything about the amount of those checking or the quality of said checks.

Do you audit every software you run? Which linux distro are you running? What do you do before installing a package you want to use?

I wouldn't just install everything I find on the internet but at some point you have to be realistic.

I'm not sure what your point is. I was just pointing out that duration of existence is not some sort of guarantee that there's no malware.

The point was that there is never some sort of guarantee, unless you personally audit every single piece of code and build it yourself with a compiler you built yourself on a computer you designed yourself.

But having an established project with a long history and many users and external developers can give you some ammount of trust in the safety of it.

That's the neat part: you don't.

I mean sure, there can be audits, 3rd party assurances, long histories without incidents, you can even check the code yourself.

But do you trust any of those completely to know what they're doing, not be compromised, to have actually done a thorough and total deep dive, and not missed anything (for example, something hidden in a tiny package like xz-utils) in the vast expanse of a codebase that is a modern browser? You shouldn't. In a small (<1000 LoC) codebase maybe, but a large one? It's not feasible. therefore...

> How do we actually know these browser forks don't contain malware of their own

You don't know, because you can't know, especially if you expand that beyond just malware, but also include dark patterns, back doors, and privacy disrespecting gems. So it becomes a matter of faith. Who do you trust more? The ones advocating for your privacy, or the ones removing such commitments from their website in light of a new ToS that has many people rightfully in an uproar?

These days, for projects of sufficient size/use, on a long enough timeframe, a project either dies or becomes enshittified. The key is to find that stage of a project/products life where you maximize usefulness and minimize enshittification. That's not to slander Waterfox, or any other project, but simply to assert that ultimately, there is rarely if ever a perfect solution that can be fully trusted.

Source: Trust me bro, I'm on the internet. No one ever lies on the internet.

2019, 109 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20047170

2021, 101 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28815747

I wonder why this was pushed off the front page?

This is my first comment while using Waterfox. Installing and adding ublock was nearly identical to the countless Firefox installs I've done. Painless.

So long, Mozilla, it's been a nice couple decades.

Comments > x, de-weight upvotes, kick to page 12 of sort by votes and only see if sort by new.

x = number, algorithm, and/or moderator manual usage. Annoying for when you want to see discussion about a topic.

Ad blocking?

The browser many not track you but the ad networks do. Without ad blocking, your browsing really isn't all that private.

It takes less than a minute to add ublock

Ok, so perhaps the fact that an addon is needed to achieve real privacy should be pointed out somewhere on the web site amongst all the discussion about privacy.

If they're just copying Mozilla's half hearted approach to privacy, it should be pointed out that browser updates have been known to disable add-ons so this becomes an ongoing issue.

It takes no time/effort to add real privacy to LibreWolf and keep it active because it is built-in. The same applies to other browsers which claim to offer real privacy by default.

WaterFox really seems to want to cater to the non-technical crowd with their "trust us" front page with zero details about how their alleged privacy features work, nor even links to the details. The use of JavaScript on the site makes me trust them even less.

The really cool thing about Waterfox is that REAL vim keyboard navigation via VimFX[1] has been supported.

The integration is much deeper than what Vimium and the other WebExtensions allow.

https://github.com/akhodakivskiy/VimFx

>The integration is much deeper than what Vimium and the other WebExtensions allow.

Rather a dubious claim. Vimium is what VimFx is modelled on, and Vimium was always intended to be pretty minimalist compared to, eg, Vimperator, whose only real successor, Tridactyl, is a WebExtension.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41911352

I'm sorry but this is near unusable since the death of XUL and introduction of WebExtensions. I was a truly avid user of VimFX which did the same thing. Vimium these days does not work when a page hasn't finished loading and it doesn't work on blank pages (about:blank) or any other "system page" (like the preferences or addons). The "o" key can no longer highlight the address bar but brings up a non-native address bar that does not find my bookmarks as it should.

Imagine you couldn't click on another tab with your mouse pointer while the current active one is loading. Yes, it's as terribly frustrating as it sounds.

In the XUL days I could even use vim shortcuts to access every button in the Firefox UI!

Luckily there is a solution for now. VimFx[1] is still being updated and works with the LegacyFox shim!

been using waterfox for a long time now and have very little to complain about. it's lean, snappy, and generally very easy to get along with as a browser. trouble is that pesky memory leak issue that seems to plague gecko-based browsers.

Anyone looking to get temporary containers working properly:

1. about:debugging

2. This Waterfox

3. Find the Temporary Containers "extension"

4. Inspect (which opens Dev tools)

5. Go to Storage > Extension Storage

6. Change containerPrefix value from "waterfox" to "firefox"

Well, switching from Firefox to Waterfox was a pretty easy switch.

> Waterfox: Fast and Private Web Browser

Does it connects to e100.net as librefox and firefox do ?

Switched to Waterfox, have some problems with addons, but without an alternative, this is it.

Can Waterfox load all the up-to-date Firefox extensions or it is stuck with the old plug-in system?

Support MV2, MV3 like Firefox, and also supports "classic" bootstrapped extensions, if they've been updated, which you can randomly find on Github.

1Password does not work as well as in Firefox (switched with the ToS change)

More worrying, ublock does not block as much as on Firefox.

Firefox -> Waterfox: I've used OneTab to migrate 200+ open tabs.

For anyone interested in what features there are (I should really have this on an article on the website, but also... how do you market all this? I went for a 'generic' landing page as I assume the average person cares little)

Please note some features became available in Firefox after we added them, not related I believe it was just coincidental.

A high level overview of what Waterfox offers vs Firefox:

* DNS over Oblivious HTTP to encrypt and anonymise DNS requests. Currently the only browser on the market to do so by default I believe? Just a note that we've partnered with Fastly for this and they control the "relay" node in the middle, for proper privacy sanitisation. More info: https://blog.cloudflare.com/oblivious-dns/

* In-depth configuration of numerous preferences within the Firefox codebase, striking a balance between privacy and web usability.

* Full support for JPEG-XL (including for animation, alpha, progressive decode, and colour profiles).

* Vertical tabs and sidebar support: https://www.waterfox.net/blog/waterfox-x-treestyletab/

* In-depth UI customisations. Currently working with black7375, on Lepton for customisations specific to Waterfox. You can view all the UI changes not available in Firefox but available in Waterfox at https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/wiki/Options.

* "Classic" about:config available at about:cfg and "classic" password list at about:passwords

* Removal of all telemetry within the browser.

* Removal of all A/B testing within the browser.

* Removal of all unnecessary external connections (Google, Mozilla, Meta, etc.) where feasible.

Quality of life changes:

* Ability to disable auto-updates (not available in other forks)

* Integration with Ubuntu's Unity menu on Linux

* Ability to "restart" the browser in one click

* Ability to right-click "unload" tabs not in use

* Ability to "copy" tab URLs

* Ability to enable an old-school status bar—allows you to pin functions and addons to the bottom of the browser UI.

* Ability to disable Ctrl+W (or cmd+W) with a preference.

* Ability to play DRM content such as Netflix, Disney+, etc., not available in any other open source forks.

* Private Tabs (you don't need to open a new private window if you don't want; you can instead open a private tab).

* Ability to have tabs above address bar, below address bar, or at the bottom of the browser UI.

* Extensive changes to the about:preferences page, allowing changing of browser settings usually hidden.

* Technical support for Chrome and Opera extensions (this needs work!)

* Usage of a more privacy-centric search engine when in Private Window mode.

There's a bunch more, but still need to collate them more.

Oh and also no AI bullshit that siphons your data off to 3rd party providers. Doesn't mean I'm completely against it, but it has to be local only and performant IF it were to ever make its way to Waterfox.

Are you going to be binning Rust and focus purely on C++?

Rust has its advantages https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VgptLwP588

I'm a Java dev, so I don't have any skin in the game either for Rust or C++, I was simply pointing out that Mozilla has spun off Rust and let go of some of it developers who were focussed on adding Rust to Firefox.

Thank you for this, and for the project!

One feature request: as I have never dug into the internals I don't know if this is feasible, but long ago Firefox had a very simple extension that exposed a button that could disable javascript (without a reload of the whole page). It appeared to be native or built-in capability as it used to be a config option if I remember correctly. I have not found anything that works well in current firefox, perhaps it's not technically possible anymore? But being able to disable javascript, ideally on per-tab basis, is super helpful.

> Removal of all telemetry within the browser.

May I ask what telemetry this refers to? What telemetry is bundled with Firefox that can’t be easily disabled in prefs?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com