Why is no one talking about Mozilla's latest madness?

We are kinda talking about it (although I missed them the first time around, so thank you for this submission)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43187423 (80pts, 24 comments)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43185909 (44pts, 4 comments)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43194536 (38pts, 14 comments)

"Mozilla can end anyone's access to Firefox at any time for any reason"

How. The program is open source. Anyone can remove/disable telemetry or other access to Mozilla servers before compiling. Alternatively, using other open source software, anyone can prevent Firefox from accessing Mozilla servers.

I stopped relying on graphical browsers for recreational web use starting back in 2000s.

"Mozilla owns royalty-free, unrestricted access to your inputs processed by Firefox (like Search, Web History, etc.)"

But the Mozilla press releases and blog posts about protecting user privacy will continue.

Mozilla should be sued for all their misrepresentations. Through discovery the public may learn what this company is actually up to.

Oh, I'm pretty sure they are working hard to keep this off the front page of HN. Fragment the submissions, claim they are all dupes, whatever it takes.

Gotta make sure all the community products keep up to speed with the corporate products being forced by the state to collect data. Just dabble in a color revolution to change out the leadership, then slowly undermine the privacy.

To me these are reasonable and quite standard points (the first point only applying to Mozilla's services).

The easy alternative is to just make your own local fork. Download the source code, change the name, compile it yourself and you're no longer bound to any of those terms.

How is it reasonable? Firefox is a MPL licensed software. Why would they suddenly need a ToS if it is just a software? The speculation is that they are going to expand their data collection for ads and covering their ass via this new ToS.

Because they're providing an executable which interacts with additional services, and they're based in the US where lawsuits is the default way to settle disagreements.

For example, the point about them getting "royalty-free, unrestricted access to your inputs" is almost certainly to protect against frivolous lawsuits along the lines of "I typed something in the Search Bar and Mozilla copied it and that violated my copyright and so I want $1 billion".

Again, you're free to make your own fork, in which case you're not bound by these terms.

Why is Mozilla copying my search? It should only goto the search engine I selected. Mozilla doesn't need that data. Firefox just does the HTTP transfer and display's on my screen. Almost all software does that. Also why Mozilla did not require a ToS for two decades but now?

Because your search history can be stored, and that stored history can get synced if you use the Sync feature. That's kinda the point behind the Sync feature.

Sync is end-to-end encrypted. Even if they want to introduce ToS, it should be only for Sync feature, not the whole software. Also why Sync suddenly requires ToS after two decades?

Can't wait until Ladybird is released:

https://ladybird.org/

Mozilla has been mindlessly operating for like 15 years. This is just the icing on top. I'm just waiting for something non-chrome, non-firefox at this point...

> - Mozilla now restricts users from watching or uploading sexuality explicit content through Firefox

I'm very curious to know how they will impede this?

Your first bullet point isn't mentioned in either of the links you provide.

Please check the link in ToS.

It leads to this Acceptable Use Policy

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/legal/acceptable-use/

"Upload, download, transmit, display, or grant access to content that includes graphic depictions of sexuality or violence,"

That is for Mozilla's services like pocket or MDN, not Firefox.

It is very clearly mentioned in ToS that it applies to Firefox as well.

"You Are Responsible for the Consequences of Your Use of Firefox

Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy, and you agree that you will not use Firefox to infringe anyone’s rights or violate any applicable laws or regulations.

You will not do anything that interferes with or disrupts Mozilla’s services or products (or the servers and networks which are connected to Mozilla’s services)."

The ToS mentions you have to follow their Acceptable Use policy, found here[1]. I guess that's what OP refers to, as it contains the following:

Upload, download, transmit, display, or grant access to content that includes graphic depictions of sexuality or violence,

However, the Acceptable Use Policy only covers Mozilla's services, as mentioned at the very start of the document and further down. So I don't see how it covers the browser itself, as it is not a service.

[1]: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/legal/acceptable-use/

Please read ToS once again.

"You Are Responsible for the Consequences of Your Use of Firefox

Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy, and you agree that you will not use Firefox to infringe anyone’s rights or violate any applicable laws or regulations."

They can't be more clear than this. Acceptable Use Policy also applies to Firefox.

> They can't be more clear than this. Acceptable Use Policy also applies to Firefox.

Indeed, and the AUP only covers Mozilla's services. In other words, you cannot use Firefox to upload porn to Mozilla's services. You can upload porn to OnlyFans or PornHub, as they are not one of Mozilla's services (yet anyway).

That is your interpretation. It may not be Mozilla's or a Judge's interpretation.

IANAL so of course. But I'd bet real money that they'd share my interpretation.

Particularly note that they say "Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy" (emphasis mine) rater than for example "The terms of Mozilla's Acceptable Use Policy also applies to Firefox".

If it had said the latter I would certainly agree with you on this.

no alternatives? there's tons of different browsers

Are we looking at the same document? This is what I see on their TOS page:

Firefox Terms of Use

Firefox is free and open source web browser software, built by a community of thousands from all over the world.

Please read these Terms of Use (“Terms”) carefully because they explain important information about using your copy of the Firefox software. These Terms are a binding agreement between Mozilla Corporation (“Mozilla”) and You. For details about Firefox privacy practices, please read the Firefox Privacy Notice. Mozilla Gives You Certain Rights and Permissions

Mozilla grants you a personal, non-exclusive license to install and use the “Executable Code" version of the Firefox web browser, which is the ready-to-run version of Firefox from an authorized source that you can open and use right away. Firefox is Open Source Software

We make the source code for Firefox available to you under the terms of various open source licenses, including the Mozilla Public License. This means you may use, copy, modify, and distribute Firefox to others, as long as you follow the open source licenses and the Mozilla Trademark Guidelines. These Terms only apply to the Executable Code version of Firefox, not the Firefox source code.

In order to play certain types of video, Firefox may download content decryption modules from third parties which may not be open source.

Mozilla’s Intellectual Property

Mozilla does not grant you any intellectual property rights in Firefox that are not specifically stated in these Terms. For example, these Terms do not give you rights to use any copyrights, trademarks, or other distinctive brand features of Mozilla or its licensors.

You Give Mozilla Certain Rights and Permissions

You give Mozilla all rights necessary to operate Firefox, including processing data as we describe in the Firefox Privacy Notice, as well as acting on your behalf to help you navigate the internet. When you upload or input information through Firefox, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license to use that information to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox.

Your Feedback and Suggestions

If you give Mozilla any ideas, suggestions, or feedback about the Services, you give Mozilla permission to use them for free and without any additional obligations.

If You Use Certain Optional Firefox Features or Services, There are Additional Terms

Some Services in Firefox Require a Mozilla Account

If you want to use certain services like sync, you’ll need a Mozilla account. To create a Mozilla account, you will also need to agree to the Terms of Service and Privacy Notice for Mozilla accounts.

Other Optional Services

Some features in Firefox require you to opt in to them specifically. In order to use them, you will need to agree to the specific Terms and Privacy Notice for each service you use.

Mozilla Can Update or Terminate This Agreement

Mozilla Can Update These Terms

Every once in a while, Mozilla may decide to update these Terms. We will post the updated Terms online. We will take your continued use of Firefox as acceptance of such changes. We will post an effective date at the top of this page to make it clear when we made our most recent update.

Termination

These Terms apply until either you or Mozilla decide to end them. You can choose to end them at any time for any reason by stopping your use of Firefox. Mozilla can suspend or end anyone’s access to Firefox at any time for any reason, including if Mozilla decides not to offer Firefox anymore. If we decide to suspend or end your access, we will try to notify you at the email address associated with your account or the next time you attempt to access your account.

You Are Responsible for the Consequences of Your Use of Firefox

Your use of Firefox must follow Mozilla’s Acceptable Use Policy, and you agree that you will not use Firefox to infringe anyone’s rights or violate any applicable laws or regulations.

You will not do anything that interferes with or disrupts Mozilla’s services or products (or the servers and networks which are connected to Mozilla’s services).

You Won’t Claim Mozilla is Responsible for Your Use of Firefox (Indemnification)

You agree to indemnify and hold Mozilla and its affiliates harmless for any liability or claim from your use of Firefox, to the extent permitted by applicable law.

There are Some Important Limitations on Mozilla’s Liability

To the extent permitted by applicable law, you agree that Mozilla will not be liable in any way for any inability to use Firefox or for any limitations of Firefox. Mozilla specifically disclaims the following: Indirect, special, incidental, consequential, or exemplary damages, direct or indirect damages for loss of goodwill, business interruption, lost profits, loss of data, or computer malfunction. Any liability for Mozilla under this agreement is limited to $500.

You may have other rights under your own country’s laws. Nothing in these Terms is intended to affect those rights, if they apply.

Firefox is Provided “As is” (Warranty Disclaimer)

Mozilla provides Firefox “as is.” To the extent applicable law allows, Mozilla and its affiliates specifically disclaim any legal guarantees or warranties such as “merchantability,” “fitness for a particular purpose,” “non-infringement,” and warranties arising out of a course of dealing, usage, or trade.

Other Things You Should Know Choice of Law

California law applies to this contract, except for California’s conflict of law.

If there is any conflict between this English version of these Terms and a translation, this English version applies. You can contact Mozilla at:

Mozilla Corporation Attn: Mozilla – Legal Notices 149 New Montgomery Street 4th Floor San Francisco, CA 94105

legal-notices@mozilla.com