New maps of the chaotic space-time inside black holes
quantamagazine.org
quantamagazine.org
my understanding was that this was d̶i̶s̶p̶r̶o̶v̶e̶n̶ mathematically incorrect:
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38636225
- sabine's take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz55jONtFAU
edit: disproven -> mathematically incorrect
To the extent anything in this discussion can be absolute, it's the wrongness of your statement. Nothing about singularities has been empirically proven (or disproven).
One divided by zero is a singularity. Singularity, mathematically speaking, means your math breaks. Calculus gets around this problem with limits. But there is absolutely nothing about physics that prohibits singularities, even gravitational singularities, in a zero G space because by definition a gravitational singularity per se has an undefined G.
Moreover, it hard to imagine that Higgs bosons will act at same place and time with same effectiveness.
So, I cannot believe in a singularity unless it will be physically demonstrated.
Also, no one serious claims that singularities exist when taking quantum mechanics into account. It's completely unknown territory.
As non-native speaker, it's hard for me to argue with native speakers (especially when I sick, tired, in army, and at war), and I refuse to use AI to translate, because I suspect that such messages will be automatically rejected by future archivists.
I think you're talking about the fact that the gravitational force inside of a symmetric shell of matter is zero. But the potential is not, as can be (and has been, I believe) demonstrated quite easily by just putting a clock in a hole and measuring the time dilation relative to the surface.
Sorry you are at war. Good luck.
Moreover, the tunnel itself will create much stronger impact on results on asteroid, than on Moon. If we will dig ∅1 cm tunnel to the center of the Moon, it missing volume will be pretty insignificant and easy to compensate, e.g. with lead plug.
Moreover, big and rigid Moon will be much better antenna for lot of experiments, than small and soft asteroid.
The singularity in a black hole has no conception of baryons, hadrons or fermions. Those are quantum particles. The singularity is in general relativity.
Also, 0G doesn’t mean zero gravity. An object in freefall is still subject to gravity despite experiencing 0G.
(Side note: fermions can occupy the same place at the same time. They cannot occupy the same state. This seeming mathematic fuckery goes on to describe many real-world weirdos like neutron stars.)
It's just that the _light_ that this observer emits takes infinitely long to reach observers outside of the singularity.
> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."Therefore, I believe the rules against name-calling are not literal. As you noticed, attempting to restrict discussion more strictly would make it bland, but on the other hand when it comes to literal name-calling in a civilized discussion it’s way past all limits.
Tangentially, I was surprised to learn recently that merely the use of specific “you” in an argument is already considered unnecessary and perceived as somewhat confrontational. Haven’t confirmed it from multiple sources (not sure how to search for), but in hindsight it makes sense: the mood changes, and the argument can quickly devolve thereafter. I suspect it might be something from psychotherapy practice.
Not necessarily unnecessary, but necessarily personal.
If I changed the “your” in the top comment to “this,” I think it would better communicate both my issue and reasonable irritation with the comment I was responding to. At the same time there is another commenter in this thread who refused to back down, and at that point a “you’re bordering on trolling” seems appropriate. It is confrontational, but not unnecessarily so.
This is the danger of trying to sensationalize science and putting any special weight on science influencers, especially ones who very often seem gung-ho about any story that challenges the status quo despite the evidence.
https://www.pbs.org/video/what-if-singularities-do-not-exist...
Echoing JumpCrisscross' sentiment, though. "Disproven" is way too strong of a word.
So why would a singularity ever form? And what can't be formed, can't exist.
But, then, I've never seen anywhere that the mass of the black hole (which is very much a real thing that exists in spacetime) is distributed over the event horizon, which would be at the biggest amount of mass a given region of spacetime can hold, and is not concentrated on a point with infinite density inside it.
1) you'd see infinite space dilation. Distance between you and anything would increase to infinity. It doesn't even matter if it's closer to the black hole from you or further away. I wonder if it even occurs with things that fall into the black hole with you.
2) You'd see time pass infinitely fast. I'd say "behind you", but not really of course: anything already fallen in you wouldn't see, and you wouldn't see anything exactly at the same position as you do, so anything you can see would see time pass infinitely fast. You'd be "transported to the end of time".
3) You'd see the whole universe compress into a single point (like in a lens I presume)
I wonder if this wouldn't present problems. The whole point of Hawking radiation is that the black hole will stretch out the wave function of light, in both ways (it "transports energy" from the virtual photon falling in to the particle escaping. The particle falling in loses energy, and keeps losing energy forever, while the particle escaping gains energy and since gravity has infinite range, it also keeps gaining energy forever, it's just that the amount decreases exponentially, never quite reaching zero. The particles never quite become real particles, however virtual particles do interact, so I'm not quite sure what makes them virtual, aside from their origin). Wouldn't it stretch out the wave function of any particle? And if you stretch out the wave function of a particle, you reduce it's energy. If you stretch it out infinitely you reduce it's energy, in the limit (but the limit is the event horizon), to zero. And the particles themselves aren't zero size: they would "see" this happen. Even the famous "point-particle" that is the electron has a wave function that occupies a portion of space (in fact, it occupies a surprisingly big volume)
So the mass of black holes could be in these frozen particles being teleported to the end of time, while losing energy.
I've often wondered about that - whether you'd see to the end of the universe. However, I've seen various descriptions using Penrose diagrams that show that events from far enough in the future would never be able to reach the intrepid explorer before they hit the singularity at the middle of the black hole (assuming that one exists).
That doesn't seem to be possible as information/light from the end of the universe would not be able to reach you.
There's a discussion of it here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/82678/does-someo...
Which of course is infinite, but not QUITE infinite infinite. The last light to reach you will be from the time the black hole ceases to exist, which is "close" (in relative terms) to the heat death of the universe, even if it's incredibly far away from it measured in years.
ps. Energy is sucked up from the center by second event horizon, but matter is pushed inside, forming a dense and cool crystal, a solid foundation for second order effects to play.
Occam’s razor absolutely doesn’t predict that the weird thing that breaks physics occurs twice and then precipitates a crystal.
However, we can see that stars are eaten by black holes, and then can be partially released back years later, so it's proven that 1) «an event horizon» exists, 2) matter can pass the «event horizon» in both directions, 3) light cannot pass the «event horizon» in one direction.
I do not introduce a new physics, like a «singularity», without any evidence. Occam's razor is in my hands now.
Where was this proven?
What we can, however, say that is more tangible is that the make-up of Hawking radiation cannot depend whatsoever on the matter that falls into the black hole apart from three properties: mass, charge and momentum. Other than those three properties, all other information that crosses the event horizon is lost and can't escape.
So, if one black hole was formed purely from 1 kg of protons with 0 momentum, and another black hole was formed from 1 kg of positrons with 0 momentum, these two black holes would be indistinguishable from each other. There would be nothing that could be emitted by either black hole via Hawking radiation or any other mechanism that could allow you to deduce that one was formed from protons and the other from positrons.
It's in this stricter information theoretic sense that nothing escapes from beyond the event horizon of a black hole.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_parad...
Hawking himself originally had an idea of photons that tunnelled through the event horizon as a possible mechanism.
No it doesn’t.
> because speed is much higher, 50% of speed of light
Spin the singularity.
I’d love to see a source for the authors claiming they believe matter exited the event horizon. That’s literally Nobel prize groundbreaking.
> No it doesn’t.
It is, because of the silence before the sudden «burp». Something consumed all the radiation produced by the accretion disk. I know the only one possible solution: the «event horizon».
Astronomers says that they are not sure:
> "Black holes are very extreme gravitational environments even before you pass that event horizon, and that's what’s really driving this," Cendes said. "We don’t fully understand if the material observed in radio waves is coming from the accretion disk or if it is being stored somewhere closer to the black hole. Black holes are definitely messy eaters, though."
but I can use this as evidence that the center of black hole contains a dense and cold crystal. Why not?
Moreover, if fractal theory is right, then we are inside infinite number of black holes of increasing sizes (or other objects). But, if we are inside a black hole, why sky is black and space is cold then?
Try the unstable region between the ISCO and EH.
> Astronomers says that they are not sure
They’re not sure where outside the EH.
> I can use this as evidence that the center of black hole contains a dense and cold crystal. Why not?
You’re bordering on trolling, but simply, it’s because the evidence doesn’t work.
The definitional trait of an event horizon is that it is causally disconnected from the outside universe. It is the "horizon" beyond which "events" cannot be causally connected to some observer.
A consequence of this is that nothing we observe on the outside can definitely tell us what's going on inside.
Closest we can get is creating a complete and consistent set of laws of physics and asking those laws what happens — it's fairly trivial to show there's an infinite number of such laws (such a demonstration is why Occam's Razor is even a thing), even despite the fact that right now we don't have a single one of them.
> Moreover, if fractal theory is right, then we are inside infinite number of black holes of increasing sizes (or other objects). But, if we are inside a black hole, why sky is black and space is cold then?
I don't even know what you think you mean with "fractal theory", but the reason space is black and cold is that (1) the hot surface visible in every direction to the right telescopes is very far away, and (2) the universe is expanding, and the combination of (1) and (2) means (3) it's been red-shifted so hard you can't see it with the naked eye.
The question of if the entire visible universe is the interior of a black hole in a bigger universe, has no apparent relationship in either direction to 1, 2 or 3.
It's just a theory. When theory doesn't match reality — we replace theory.
> I don't even know what you think you mean with "fractal theory",
Fractal theory is simple: Universe is a 3D fractal, which means that if we will zoom in or zoom out for long time, we will see similar structures again and again and again, for infinity.
Thus, if we will zoom out, we will find our Universe as part of an unknown object of giant size, such as a dust particle in space.
However, if we zoom long enough, we will see that we are also part of a known object of even larger size: a dust particle, a star, a black hole, an grain on a beach, etc.
> universe is expanding
Nope. Imagine that we are sitting at surface of a rubber balloon and it deflates. We also see lot of rubber balloons around us, which are doing the same. We will see that surfaces of all balloons are moving away from us, so you may think that this rubber Universe is expanding. Surfaces of larger balloons further away are moving away even faster that surfaces of smaller balloons near to us, so you may think that this rubber Universe is expanding with acceleration, but this is just an illusion. In reality, balloons are deflating, their centers are barely moving.
> but the reason space is black and cold is that (1) the hot surface visible in every direction to the right telescopes is very far away
Yep, but why? Look, I'm trying to guess our location in outer Universe. Our base space is very rigid, it able to withstand powerful forces without hitting it limits. Black holes are able to hit limits of the space, so I suspect that equally strong forces are holding our space, thus we are inside in a black hole. But where we are in the black hole? We don't see curvature of space, thus we are in a flat part of the black hole. Where this flat part can be? IMHO, we are near to center of black hole, in the north hemisphere.
Sure.
But if you throw away the theory of relativity, you don't have any evidence that black holes exist in the first place — every observation of something that points to the concept of "a black hole" presupposes that relativity is close enough to correct for event horizons to be exactly as one-directional as time. (That't not a metaphor, literally).
If GR is not close enough to correct for the event horizon to be there, then black holes don't exist either, they are meaningless words.
Most actual researchers know there's a problem with GR specifically because of black holes' singularities, and at least one of GR and QM because of the EH — but nobody knows what to do about it as all the attempts to fix it either violate existing observations or have no testable consequences.
> Fractal theory is simple: Universe is a 3D fractal, which means that if we will zoom in or zoom out for long time, we will see similar structures again and again and again, for infinity.
Then it is false. The universe is not scale-invariant.
If anything, the opposite of your claim: at large scales even within the range we can sense, the "End of Greatness" scale is around 100 megaparsecs, at which point everything starts to look homogeneous and isotropic; conversely at the quantum scale, concepts of "position" and "momentum" cease to be independent. Electrons don't orbit their nucleus the way planets do, every measurement of position is random from the distribution of the corresponding "orbital".
There's nothing to even suggest what you say.
> Nope. Imagine that we are sitting at surface of a rubber balloon and it deflates. We also see lot of rubber balloons around us, which are doing the same. We will see that surfaces of all balloons are moving away from us, so you may think that this rubber Universe is expanding. Surfaces of larger balloons further away are moving away even faster that surfaces of smaller balloons near to us, so you may think that this rubber Universe is expanding with acceleration, but this is just an illusion. In reality, balloons are deflating, their centers are barely moving.
What do the balloons represent here? Because if it's space, and the more distant ones are bigger, you've just put a funny map onto an expanding spacetime.
> Yep, but why? Look, I'm trying to guess our location in outer Universe.
Meaningless.
> Our base space is very rigid, it able to withstand powerful forces without hitting it limits. Black holes are able to hit limits of the space, so I suspect that equally strong forces are holding our space, thus we are inside in a black hole. But where we are in the black hole? We don't see curvature of space, thus we are in a flat part of the black hole. Where this flat part can be? IMHO, we are near to center of black hole, in the north hemisphere.
Now I'm sure you're trolling.
These words do not seem to connect to anything tangible.
There is no testable interior of a black hole, so we cannot say if they "hit limits of space" or not — the singularity in the middle is a mathematical consequence of a divide-by-zero that no actual researcher in the field takes seriously, in part because the maths underpinning general relativity presupposes singularities never happen. (To be more precise, spacetime is presumed to be differentiable, and thus sufficiently small patches can be treated as if they were flat — singularities can never be treated this way).
Black holes get more curved, less flat as you get closer to where the maths says the singularity would be. Outside a black hole this can be directly observed, it was one of the initial tests of GR that meant it was ever taken seriously in the first place.
And "in the north hemisphere"? There's no universe-spanning magnetic field to give that meaning.
One can see the dynamics like this: the star is tidally disrupted and produces energy discharge via frictional heating (basically). Then the remnant gas is sufficiently spread out so as not to radiate much, then the dynamics of the accretion disk concentrate the infalling matter enough to heat up again and some of the material is ejected.
Given our simultaneous understanding of GR and other physical phenomena this seems like the most likely explanation.
You’re right. But playing devil’s advocate, there are QM objects that look like black holes [1] as well as observations of a supermassive object at Sagittarius A*.
It's worth noting that there are a number of phenomena for which we have built detectors to find this mysterious "dark matter", all of which have failed to turn anything up whatsoever. In fact they are less than useless in that we still don't know if any of the proposed mechanisms can even be ruled out yet. The experiments achieved basically zero information gain in that regard.
Occam's razor flashes bright in the cold dark of space.
Yes, we have photos of collapsed stars, some of which were above the Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit and became black holes. When they are not above it, they either become white dwarf or neutron stars.
I don't think there is any harm really in calling the objects we have "taken photographs of" (these images are model dependent, so to call them photographs is a bit of a stretch) "black holes," but if we want to be totally precise a black hole is a specific concept in GR, a theory which most people think is incomplete, and we have only found some correspondences between that theoretical object and some observations in the world.
It is an interesting exercise to apply this sort of thinking to (for example) electrons. Do we know electrons exist? In an informal sense, obviously, but in a more detailed sense I would argue care must be taken. We know that QED, for example, is not renormalizable, and thus we ought to be careful to distinguish the notion of "QED electrons" from "Standard Model Electrons" from "the things that leave exposures on our detectors."
But we do know considerably more about the qualities of the physical objects we measure and call electrons than we know about the qualities of the physical objects we measure and call black holes. I don't think its unreasonable to be careful about these things.
That has nothing to do with the measurement problem. Also, the measurement problem is only a problem of the Copenhagen interpretation. It doesn't exist in the many worlds interpretation.
Precision measurements by satellites around Earth and spacecraft scattered around the solar system reveal the nonlinearity of gravitation, as do precision measurements of systems like Hulse-Taylor and PSR J2222-0137.
A linear superposition law for gravitation is consequently unavailable - again, this can be seen in the solar system, where a linear superposition model helped find a real mass (Neptune, where ultimately the telescope targetting was driven by Urbain Le Varrier's detailed study of the orbit of Uranus in the 1840s, assuming the validity of Newtonian gravitation), but misled astronomers into decades of futile searches for "Vulcan", a hypothetical body inside Mercury's orbit.
There are a bunch of ways one can capture the nonlinearity of observed gravitation. A nice slogan: gravitation self-gravitates. A nice theoretical framework: Newton-Cartan gravity is great for exploring the failure of linear gravity. An easier theoretical approach: the relativistic two-body effective radial potential energy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-body_problem_in_general_re...> or less encyclopedically <https://spaceengine.org/articles/the-anomalous-advance-of-th...> where you can see the same effective potential term written slightly differently, with more about Mercury's orbit.
Quoting the latter:
Again I don't want to get lost in math, but it's worthwhile
just to look briefly at what the math is saying here.
Notice this still has the exact same two terms from the
Newtonian effective potential: an attraction that goes as
-1/r, and a repulsion that goes as +1/r^2. But a new term
is added: another attractive term that goes as -1/r^3. This
means that at very small radii, the -1/r^3 term dominates,
and gravitation becomes attractive again, dominating even
over the centrifugal effect of your orbital velocity.
The increased attraction mimics an additional mass in a linear theory.No linear theory of gravitation is viable for known planetary and astrophysics. At best one can come up with a quasi-linear theory.
This is calculationally unfortunate: solving the full nonlinear Einstein Field Equations exactly is fiendishly hard. Where one can use a linear approximation, essentially every physicist would choose to do so. Indeed, Einstein invented linearized gravity (and various other approximation techniques). Unfortunately, linear theories of gravity can only ever be approximate, as they fail to deal with multibody systems, systems where orbital velocities are even only thousands of kilometres per second, where one wants to trace out radiation (including gravitational radiation), and so forth. Convincing proof of incompatibility between any possible linear theories of gravity and numerous observed physical orbits have been known since the 1960s. Roman Sexl did some really interesting work (alone and with collaborators like Otto Nachtmann) in that area in that decade.
These days one can turn to box 7.1 (sec. H) of Misner Thorne & Wheeler as a textbook starting point.
None of this really has anything to do with quantum mechanics, except with respect to a correspondence principle (e.g. Fraunhofer-like spectral lines have their origin in quantum mechanics, and we can see how gravity rather than just motion affects them).
Doesn't many worlds require branching into numbers of branches that would in some cases be irrational numbers? And you have to have some kind of index on the branch to make some of them physically distinguishable enough to still maintain probability. If equivalent branches are in there it's hard to explain how a 75%/25% branch would be distinguishable as a probability to an observer without some kind of extra index like information that has them land in the 75% more often. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation#Pro...)
> That has nothing to do with the measurement problem.
He refered to I think the Diósi-Penrose model, where it would:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di%C3%B3si%E2%80%93Penrose_mod...
But on the other point, how can there be an irrational number of branches to sample these statistics from? I just can't visualize the type of structure that would have that but I'm sure it is more subtle. I've heard the branches aren't branches under MWI but instead are something more continuous and I guess I don't understand it at that point.
I can't wrap my head around what it means for your future to become a destination that you can't escape in the same way you can't escape tomorrow.
How would an imaginary indestructible being that fell into a black hole make sense of this. Does intuition just flip to accomodate this?
But the true insight of GR is that coordinates are not physical and that any physical question must have an answer that is coordinate invariant. So the whole exercise of imagining a "time direction" is moot. One can pose questions like "what do the null geodesics between two points look like as they move along their trajectories and one passes the event horizon" or questions like that. Ultimately only such questions have a physical meaning in GR and related theories.
Practically speaking in the local coordinates of an infalling observer passing the event horizon all the parts of the observer on the other side of the horizon, including signals, are simply destined to move towards the center of the black hole and the parts on the outside have some dynamical freedom not to. This is, in fact, what the inversion of the two coordinates means physically.
Footnote 1:
In Schwarzschild Coordinates the line element is given by: ds^2 = -(1 - 2GM/r) dt^2 + (1 / (1 - 2GM/r)) dr^2 + r^2 dθ^2 + r^2 sin^2(θ) dφ^2
Note that if 2GM/r is less than 2 then the sign in front of dt^2 is negative and the sign in front of dr^2 is positive. If 2GM/r is greater than one then the sign in front of dt^2 becomes positive and the sign in front of dr^2 is negative. This is the so-called inversion between a spatial dimension (r) and time. But it doesn't do to take this too seriously, as, again, the physics of the situation are entirely separate from any coordinatization we might choose.