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Comment by jacobsenscott | Hacker News Reader

I was around before the clean code movement, and like all software movements, it was a reaction to real problems in the software industry. Massive procedural functions with deeply nested conditionals, no structure, global variables, no testing at all. That was all the norm.

Clean Code pushed things in a better direction, but it over-corrected. In many ways APOSD (published in 2018) is a correction against the excesses of Clean Code (published in 2008).

Will people swing too far back, to giant methods, deeply nested conditionals, etc? I don't know. But probably.

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I believe that there is a genuine physiological effect that makes it a good idea to have the area of code that you need to think about fit entirely on one screen, without scrolling. There is probably an upper limit to the screen height where that limit is useful: I would believe a 100-line function to be above it and a 24-line function to be safely below it, but I wouldn't want to hazard a guess in the middle.

It's all to do with how your brain processes what it's seeing, and the planning processes involved in getting to the next bit of information it needs. If that information is off-screen, then the mechanisms for stashing the current state and planning to move your hands in whatever way necessary to bring it onscreen will kick in, and that's a sort of disfluency.

Similarly with tokens too far from whatever you're currently focused on. There's likely to be a region (or possibly a number of tokens) around your current focal point within which your brain can accurately task your eyes to scan, and outside that, there's a seeking disfluency.

I think this is why you get weird edge cases like k and j, where they pride themselves on having All The Code in one 80x24 buffer, and it actually works for them despite breaking all the rules about code legibility.

The term you're looking for is cognitive load. It's a qualitative term used to represent the amount of information a person has to keep in working memory while working on a task.

Cognitive load is part of it, but it's not the only part. If you want to scroll the page, you have to engage physical movement. That's an inefficiency in itself.

I agree. I once attempted this on a javascript project (a personal project, not at work), after reading about APL/J/K people and their philosophy. My constraint was: I should never have to scroll. I also aimed to have as few files as possible.

The result was surprisingly pleasant, and it changed how I feel about this sort of thing. I think the Clean Code approach makes a lot of sense when you are working on a big project that contains lots of code that other people wrote, and you rely on IDE features like jumping to definition, etc. But if you can write code that fits on one screen without scrolling, something special happens. It's like all the negative aspects of terse code suddenly vanish and you get something way simpler and overall easier to work with and understand. But you really have to work to get it to that point. A middle ground (terse code but still spread out over lots of files, lots of scrolling) would be the worst of both worlds.

I think learning extremes can be useful, just don't take any one paradigm as gospel. Practicing Clean Code forces you to think in a special way, and when you've tried it, you start to get a feeling for where you should draw the line. Doing CC makes you a better programmer, but you have to figure out yourself where the tradeoffs are.

Other examples are TDD. Forcing myself to write tests for everything for a period has made all my code since better, even though I don't practice TDD now.

I feel the same way, the benefit of testing is that it forces you to write code that can be tested, which tends to make code better just in general.

If you don't nest that much, big functions aren't so bad.

You can just scroll down and see what happens in a linear fashion.

This is the Linux kernel approach, and is a big part of why the kernel uses 8-space tabs. It's generally very effective for understanding what is happening. I'm happy with a 200-line straight-line-with-error-handling function, while a monstrosity of 10 20-line functions that all do if-else is quite a bit harder to read. The latter is "clean code."

As Ben Franklin wrote "the best physician that knows the worthlessness of the most medicines."

I don't know, I think the kind of person that comments on hacker news is not the average sort of programmer. I mentioned Clean Code to a more experienced colleague today and he had no idea what I was talking about, and when I mentioned the ideas to him he laughed at them. So I don't think there's some sort of pendulum swinging the other way and people are going to start writing massive functions. You'll probably just see small subcultures come up with some new idea that's obnoxious.

There have been some pendulum swinging around things like monoliths/microservices, but even then the amount of people that those things effected is actually much less than the larger community of programmers as a whole.

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