Comment by lkrubner | Hacker News Reader

Comment by lkrubner | Hacker News Reader

My girlfriend is from Poland, and the educational system there is different, compared to the USA. When she went to college, she did a 5 year program that left her with a degree that is normally translated into the USA system as a masters degree. Her focus was Polish literature.

When she got to the USA, she did a 2nd degree, this time in marketing. She was surprised by the USA system, in particular, the number of courses that she had to take that had nothing to do with marketing. She tells me that in Poland general purpose "learn a little bit about everything" classes end with high school. Once you go to college, the assumption is that you are becoming a specialist in a particular field, and all of your education goes to that specialty. Computer programmers are not forced to take literature classes, nor are those studying literature forced to take math classes.

I have the impression that in the USA, the universities are used to fix what's often seen as a broken K-12 educational system. We know that many young people arrive at college with educational deficiencies, therefore we load up the next 4 years with all the stuff they should have learned during their K-12 years. If they want to become specialists in something, well, that is what graduate school is for, after they turn 21.

I am generally impressed with what comes out of the Polish system. I've had a chance to work with Polish programmers, and they were very good, at very young ages. And, likewise, those who study Polish literature seem to understand it deeply, having spent 5 years reading all the classics (without the distraction of having to take unrelated classes).

I think the USA would be wise to fix its K-12 system, and then allow colleges to be places where people can specialize in what they want.

FWIW, Poland and the USA get very similar results from their K-12 systems, both rank quite well compared to the average OECD country: http://www.oecd.org/pisa/46643496.pdf

For some reason there is a perception that American schools are failing, but I don't see it in the data.

Shh, if you keep pointing out that the system isn't broken then people will think they don't need to always continually try to make it better.

"For some reason there is a perception that American schools are failing, but I don't see it in the data."

It's been a linchpin to the ultra-conservative and libertarian arguments for "free market"-izing education in the US. The opinion being "well, school sucks when I grew up and/or for my child currently, and it's because government is involved". They point to other countries and their educational superiority (erroneously thinking that the countries' respective governments are somehow not at all involved in education when, in fact, the top-achieving systems have similar if not identical systems as the US).

Let's not even discuss how little they care for teacher's unions, how much teachers get paid (way too much is the current sentiment), and how all teachers are as lazy as unionized NYC construction workers on their lunch break because schools have summer breaks.

They point to a combination private schools and vouchers for the poor as the ultimate solution to our educational woes, some even going so far as saying let the dumbest, poorest, and difficult kids opt out of school by not making K-12 school mandatory.

Time out, I am the post author here and I never inferred anything about free market anything. In fact, I have written extensively on this topic and have stated on many occasions that education needs to remain public in order to provide fair opportunities for all.

However, that does not mean that US public schools are without problems. Teachers actually should receive higher salaries, but they also need to be better qualified. Unions are not an evil that diminishes educational outcomes for students, but they do need to recognize that teacher standards have steadily eroded over the past few decades instead of protecting the status quo. I could go on with statistics and such, but you can read the full post here: http://birch.co/post/10127535253/the-us-education-conundrum

It's also been a linchpin to the liberal argument for more funding for education, despite a lack of results http://www.human20.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/200909_blo...

Basically everyone with a political ideology wants to believe that US schools are horrible.

I'm fairly sure the reference points matter here. Business leaders, and policy makers, in the USA look at Germany and Japan as reference points. They don't look at Greece or Italy or Spain. Opinion makers in the USA tend to think that the USA should strive to be the best at everything. For them, being slightly better than the OECD average is a failure, not a triumph. Policy makers in the USA tend to worry about the trade deficit, and they wonder why the USA seems less competitive in international trade than Germany or Japan. This anxiety manifests in various ways, and one of those ways is the attitude toward the schools.

The perception is vis-a-vis the perception of economic, social and political status.

Continuing with the pun on the title, everyone expects more from America and America in turn also expects more from itself. When they hear "FWIW, Poland and the USA get very similar results from their K-12 systems" they can say "Oh good for Poland. This used to be a communist country and now it is as good as US in Education" or they can also say "Holy crap. America is now on par with an Eastern European country that was ruled by communists just couple of decades ago, how sad, we could do some much better".

Now, note, I don't endorse this binary view. I want all the countries to have good education, especially my country.

Also, I grew up in Eastern Europe and can also say that my high-school education there emphasized math, physics, literature and English (or other foreign language) a lot more than my American high-school (I also went to an American high-school for a one year btw, so I can compare a bit). I came to US in the 10th grade and was taking math courses along with high-school seniors and tutoring them. I was only above average at home in those subjects.

Overall, what I think works well for US high-schools:

* Kids have a choice already to specialize because they can each take an individualized curriculum. Some took more literature and English some took more physics. That's great.

* Frequent and objective testing. A lot of objective testing and quizzes. Keeps you on pace.

* More approachable and more informal teachers. Teachers that care seem to be really good. Yeah there are the ones that don't. But I noticed in my other high school even teachers that cared acted pretty un-approachable and just showed their care by signing you up for math and physics contests (Olympiads) we call them.

What doesn't work well for US high-schools:

* Too many what I see pointless after-school activities, too much emphasis on sports. Are all these kids going to become professional athletes. So why are they spending all afternoons bumping into each other at high speeds and getting injured.

* Social scene is fucked up and detracts from learning. Because there are so many activities and so much individualized choice on what classes to take. People form cliques and end up being not very approachable. There isn't a group of people you get to know and spend your whole day and years with. There was just less drama and mental effort spent on who is friends with whom and who cheated on whom.

* Too much emphasis on passive media aids (video) for teaching. There was a lot of "here watch this video kids".

* Too much emphasis on group projects. On a certain meta level they are great because it teaches everyone how group function and don't function. How to take advantage of others and how others get to take advantage of you. There were very few times when groups are evenly matched and everyone puts a fair share of work and end up with a great result.

What doesn't work well for East European high-schools:

* Corruption to the core. Everyone cheats. Teachers take bribes. Principles take bigger bribes. Kids cheat from each other. Those that don't cheat get left behind because those that cheat make the exams and test look like a piece of cake, so those get harder and harder ("Oh so it looks like everyone in this 10th grade knows about derivatives so well. Let's bring on the double integrals then!")

I find it odd that you've decided to equate communism with poor education. The Soviets put the first man in space, I'd say they must have been doing something right (edit: I should add they were still doing plenty wrong elsewhere but we're only talking education here). Having the resources to apply that education is a whole other matter of course.

Having said that, Poland is hardly a typical example of an ex-communist country here, they always tended to have fairly high education standards. Of the former communist states in the OECD stats linked by parent, they lead the pack with only Estonia slightly ahead.

I am not personally equating it. If you actually read my post you'll see that science and math were emphasized more in a Soviet-influenced area. What I was talking about is perceptions. That is how people in America (mostly) see that part of the world.

Both the US and Poland are ahead of countries like Sweden, Germany, France, Denmark, and the UK. And all of those countries are still above the OECD average.

And if you're willing to get more politically incorrect (but possibly more statistically correct) http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou... "The mean score of Americans with European ancestry is 524, compared to 506 in Europe, when first and second generation immigrants are excluded."

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