Comment by mgualt | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mgualt | Hacker News Reader

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I think it is reasonably self-evident that one doesn't often find webpages with the quality of typesetting that one finds in many printed books.

The TeX environment nowadays has hundreds of specialized packages which provide micro-typography support, programmatic diagrams, advanced mathematical features, detailed cross-referencing, multilanguage support, advanced treatment of fonts including ligatures, linebreaking, justification, character protrusion, grayscale balancing... A cursory glance at the PDFTeX author's thesis work may give an idea of how far the system has evolved:

http://www.pragma-ade.com/pdftex/thesis.pdf

It is impossible for me to adequately convey the TeX ecosystem in a comment -- you may consider that my question is aimed at people already familiar with it.

Now, I understand that current web technology seems to be improving to the point where, as you say, "you have an underlying engine that arranges text with arbitrary modifications..." So, I am left with the question of whether the TeX ecosystem can somehow be ported completely to create, say, HTML5 documents or something like this, instead of the current PDF output. I am talking about something new - this will not be a PDF, and it will not be a traditional webpage with features such as re-flow or "multi-browser support"... this would be an electronic publication where the author has complete control over the viewing experience. The advantage of this would be the possibility of extending TeX even further, to allow for programmatic control of the reading experience, to include features such as folding, nonlinear document structure, embedded media and code, and many other things I can't even fathom. If the current toolchain does in fact have the capabilities for TeX to be implemented in it - then it would be very interesting to create a plan for how to accomplish this goal in the proper way.

i'm familiar with tex.

you seem to be asking two things.

(1) - can browsers support an ecosystem that matches what is available to tex?

(2) - can tex be used to replace web pages?

the answer to (1) is yes. browsers can be "programmed" with javascript to modify layout, just as mathjax does. for example, you could write a java package that formats text for printing by adding page numbers etc. this requires someone to write the high level logic, but the underlying layout engine already exists. you would also need a package system - something like what is being developed (requirejs etc).

the quality of existing results is largely a function of market, maturity, and expectations. you're comparing books (largely paid with existing toolchains) against web pages (largely free, all this is pretty new). the layout engine itself is, as i have already said, pretty much equivalent.

(2) is a confused mess that you don't seem to have thought out properly. and given the tone of your other replies i sure ain't going to help you.

In the TeX output, say the DVI file, we can (I presume, though I don't know any details) find all the information about detailed placement and size of all the characters and diagrams. This is provided in a certain format, according to certain conceptual framework.

On the other hand, the web technologies, including javascript, can theoretically be programmed to respond to such instructions and recreate the same kind of control we get with PDFs, and even go beyond it.

What I wonder is: if we want this kind of inter-operability, what is the crux of the matter? Where precisely does the mapping have to be made?

Thanks for your 2 cents, I "ain't" asking for your "help".

Three things come immediately to mind: non-paginated layouts, immutable output, and tool support.

First, while most of the basic TeX algorithms for things like line-breaking and hyphenation could be implemented in terms of browser primitives, the overall TeX system is irrevocably page-oriented. While the maximum page length could theoretically be increased to "essentially infinite" through judicious widening of TeX's integer data types, this would break lots of TeX code and documents, for both performance and layout reasons.

Second, one of Knuth's main design goals for TeX was "perfect" backwards and cross-platform compatibility for documents, to the extent that he implemented everything in terms of integer math to avoid minor output variations due to slightly different floating-point implementations on various systems. If this is a design goal for a "drop-in" replacement system, it's not clear that the browser is a good target platform, because you generally want browser vendors to take advantage of things like hardware accelerated rendering that tend to be incompatible with "pixel-perfect" output for all permissible resolutions.

In both of the above cases, it's clear that lots of preparatory work needs to be done simply to understand what a high-quality platform for technical publishing in "native Web form" should even look like — but chances are good that it'll look quite a bit different than TeX, if only because the browser is quite a bit different than the printed page.

Finally, I use Emacs to write TeX documents and I rarely use any particularly sophisticated editor support beyond simple syntax awareness and highlighting — and I'm hardly alone. The fact that TeX is, like Emacs, largely implemented "in terms of itself" means that it's often more natural to implement automation in the document (where I include various third party packages in my definition of the "document", my point being simply that the document itself drives the automation at "runtime") rather than relying on powerful external editing and preprocessing tools. For authors like me who aren't professional Web designers and/or JavaScript programmers, the prospect of using anything related to HTML and DOM as bases for input and macros sounds like a nightmare. People commonly use TeX equation notation in plain text contexts, because, unlike SGML derivatives like HTML and MathML, TeX was designed to be written and (at least to some extent) read by humans. Again, there are lots of reasonable alternatives ranging from powerful editing tools that could potentially at this point be implemented in the same language as the document itself, which would have certain advantages, to extended versions of preprocessed input formats like Markdown. But again, it'd take lots of work to establish "one and only one" of these options as a standard.

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