The IPS LCD Revolution
codinghorror.com
codinghorror.com
I'm signed up for a metalworking class in the near future, so maybe I can solve that problem myself :)
Running Ubuntu 10.04 or something, used to run Windows 7 quite well too
I spent some time in the LCD OEM business. The simplest way I can put it is that the major LCD module providers defecate all over LCD monitor manufacturers. Their defecate takes the form or panels that sometimes are good and other times are bad. Sometimes the bad is obvious (remember the purple aluminum Apple Cinema Displays?). Sometimes it isn't (reliability issues, pixel issues, etc.
The panel makers also pull stuff like discontinuing panels seemingly overnight and changing specifications on you without notice. We saw a case where the manufacturer changed the logic power supply specification for a panel from 12V to 5V and didn't bother to tell anyone. They shipped us new panels. Monitors started to blow-up during testing. I mean, smoke coming out of them. It wasn't until we burned-up the equivalent of a small BMW (or two) of OEM LCD panels that we came to the realization that the manufacturer had caused this issue. All we got was a new data-sheet out of them.
It's a rough business to be in. Ugly as can be. The sheer size of the providers and sole-source nature of the products create a situation where, for the most part, these companies are above the law (don't ask me how I know this) and can fuck with you --the monitor manufacturer-- to no end. The only companies that don't get screwed with as much are the large players like the HP, Dell and Apple's of the industry.
IPS panels of very high resolution have been around for quite some time. Probably the most famous of these was the IBM-originated quad-HD 3840 x 2160 22 inch panel. Memory fails but I'll say that this panel goes back at least fifteen years. OEM cost started out around $20K and dropped to about $6K with time.
My concern with these 27 inch monitors would be about the unknowns. They could be just fine. But they could also not be OK in a million ways. Did they, for example, not make it to US and European shores because they did not pass safety tests? I don't know. No amount of money will compel me to, quite literally, play with fire. Do they have system-level premature failure modes such as questionable power supplies or the like? Don't know. Or how about panel-level issues, such as high failure rates or deterioration with time, temperature, etc.
Buy them if you must, but be very aware of what you are not buying. I, as an example, would not leave these things plugged in and unattended. I'd plug them all into a power strip and switch them off every time I leave the room for more than thirty minutes. While I am not saying that a fire is the unavoidable consequence of paying so little for them I am proposing that, sometimes, when thing are too good to be true there's a reason for that.
3840x2400. I paid the equivalent of 1800 USD to buy, insure and import two IBM T221s in very good condition into South Africa about a year ago. They're pretty interesting displays and quite complex to get up and running optimally even on modern hardware.
My buddy imported 3 others along with mine. All 5 displays have a strange blue glow exactly in the centre of the screen when the screen is displaying pure black. It's completely unnoticeable except when you know what to look for. One of the displays needs a 60mm fan replaced -- each monitor comes with two such fans, and the display is rated at 150W power consumption. Seems to keep the room quite warm :)
If you want to run just one at 3840x2400 @ 48Hz you have to spend extra for another set of cables and have a graphics card with 4 DVI ports (good luck with that), or order some of the newer specialist cables that allow you to get away with a pair of dual-link DVI ports. Your graphics card needs to support a Single Large Surface mode to present the virtual panels (4x1920x1200 or 3x1280x2400) as a single high resolution panel (3840x2400).
Furthermore, if you're working with animations (video, games), whichever graphics card you get needs to support frame lock across the display ports otherwise you will experience tearing across the virtual panels. I believe NVIDIA only supports this in their higher end workstation graphics cards, or across multiple cards in SLI. For this reason I went with ATI's Eyefinity on a Radeon 6750/6770.
Working with photos from my DSLR at full resolution on these two monitors is well worth it though :) (That being said, Windows application support for high DPI is unfortunately a bit pathetic.)
No idea how technically feasible that is, but "tiling" could be one way to build a really high-res 20"+ display without requiring absurdly large, continuous error-free panels.
1) Get just the panels off ebay for $60-$80 /each.
2) You can get the spec sheets for the panels with enough Googling. It's a 6-bit (yeah, not 8-bit) LVDS signal, same as most modern laptops.
3) The toughest part. Create a DVI-> high-speed LVDS converter. There might be something already available, though. A quick google only shows a Toshiba DSI -> LVDS converter capped at 1080p.
Ballparking the LVDS clock rate: 2048 * 1536 * 6 * 60 Hz = 1.1 GHz
Interesting idea, though.
Have laptops made the switch yet? (since they use displayport externally seems like it would be in their interest to use it internally as well) In that case the new MPB panel would perhaps be more suitable (and probably cheaper in the end - as well as better quality (I'm assuming/hoping it has 8 bits, but I don't know)).
And with displayport you could just hook it up to a decent gamer graphic card and be done. I'm not sure how feasible 2048x1536 is for a single-link DVI (at 60 Hz you would probably be in trouble), and graphic cards with 4 dual link DVI connectors isn't exactly mainstream so you would have to get (at least two) active displayport to DL DVI adapters, and they are not cheap either.
While you're talking about big high res panels, I'd be happy with an extra little low res panel; any of the Nintendo DS screens, for example. But being able to use these old little panels could prevent some of them ending up in landfill.
I guess the other problem is the weirdly sub-optimal nature of multiple monitors - despite years of people wanting to use multiple monitors it's still a bit kludgy.
i have the second. it works ok.
Essentially a bit of software to add other devices (ipads, phones etc.) as virtual screens
My feeling was always that it was just too small to really take advantage of the resolution. Later on AUO (or was it CMO, don't remember) came out with a 55in 3840 x 2400 panel that was really interesting. Expensive.
We know where these panels came from. LG manufacture this panel for Apple. Apple's extremely high technical standards combined with the very high pixel count mean that yields are exceptionally low. LG's contract with Apple forbids them from selling these panels to any brand-name manufacturer. These cheap monitors soak up supply of otherwise unsaleable panels that had previously been an expensive waste problem for LG. It's not too good to be true, just a quirk of the economics of panel manufacture.
There is no reason to believe that these displays would present any greater safety risk than a typical item of consumer electronics. If you really are in the trade, you'll know that not a damned soul knows exactly what they're buying. Everyone got stung by the electrolytic plague, from Apple and Dell to military contractors. Shit happens in China. Personally, I don't trust Dell any more than I trust the Shanzhai boys. The PCBs look good, they've obviously spent the money where it needs to be spent and the panels have no worse provenance than those in any other value-priced monitor.
The last time I read this on HN, less than 24 hours ago, it was clearly branded a rumour.
It sounds like people are somewhat confused and concluding that because the panel had the same part number as the one used by Apple they "came directly from Apple's supply". The only way that can happen is if Apple discontinues the product in question and there's an overstock of panels that the manufacturer needs to unload or; Apple rejects a pile of panels and, again, the manufacturer is very happy to unload them on the unsuspecting masses. Other than that, the fact that the panels have the same part number does not mean that they "came directly from Apple's supply".
My 5-year-old Samsung 244t is still a better image.
I have personally bought hundreds of thousands of dollars of shit panels from LG and Samsung and others. Not third hand or gray market, but through official and approved distribution channels in the US.
The LCD business is surreal. It is nasty as can be. Most people don't know this and don't believe it until they are inside the beast for a while. I know of one company who got sued by the US government to the tune of millions of dollars for not delivering on a contract to buy a number of custom monitors.
Why couldn't they deliver? Because the panel manufacturer decided to discontinue the panel they were using without any advance notice. And, because most of these panels are single-source, the aforementioned company was royally fucked. They, quite literally, had their product evaporate into thin air. They could not build them to save their lives.
I don't know how the ordeal ended. We, at the time, got hit with the same issue but were lucky enough to "only" have burned about $800K developing a product around the newly obsolete panels. We had to spend another half a million to design a new product around a new panel. Brutal. This is one of the reasons I am glad I moved into the software business and left hardware behind.
As for the implied quality because Apple is using the panel. All I can say is I am laughing so hard my head hurts. As I mentioned in my post, there are various grades of panels. What Apple specifies, buys and accepts could be miles away from what manufacturer B is receiving, even if they use the same part number to order them.
Even Apple gets shit panels from LG. The original aluminum 23 inch Cinema Display had a horrible purple/magenta shift problem and some had a band of discoloration along the top --both due to the LG panel. Just Google it.
I bought some of these LG panels at the time. Same exact part number Apple was using. Exactly the same panel, right? Nope. I got a batch where more than half the panels went purple within about six months or less. I figured we burned $250K on bad panels on that one. And, what's worst, you have absolutely no recourse with the panel manufacturers. The OEM business is very different from buying a monitor at Best Buy. Once we cracked-open the factory packaging (bag/box) the warranty evaporated very, very quickly, thirty to ninety days, if you were lucky. Most stuff is sold "NCNR" (Non Cancelable - Non Returnable). Translation: It's yours.
The idea that the same part number equates to the same quality and results doesn't necessarily hold water. It's akin to the idea that all models of the same car are just as good as the best one they ever built. There is such a thing as good and bad versions of that same exact car, lemons, if you will.
Saying "hey, I bought the same car my neighbor bought" doesn't guarantee that it'll be just as good or as bad as hers. Don't fall into the trap of believing that because Apple (or whoever) uses a certain panel or part then all instances of that panel or part must be good. That could not be farther from the truth.
With regards to the cheap 27 inch monitors, do as you wish. It's your money. I am merely pointing out that things are not always as good as they seem. Other than that, I don't care if you or anyone else buys them. I am no-longer in that business and I am glad. Software is sooooo much easier than hardware.
You realize, too, that these are EXACTLY the same LCD panels used in Dell and Apple monitors, from the same factories, right?
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/dgm_ips-2701wph....
Do a Google search for the LM270WQ1 label you see on the panel in those pictures, and notice how often the words "Apple" and "Dell" appear.
More discussion http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4292740
*edit: fixed bad link
We had about 20 labs, 3 of them had 1-year old Dell Precision workstations with 22" Dell LCD monitors. During the summer, we noticed the monitors developing a weird wavy waterline-ish streak along the top 2" of the LCD. The LCD still displayed fine, but everything above this waterline was noticeably darker. The wavy waterline was different on each monitor - on some it only extended down a centimeter across one corner.
Eventually half of the monitors in these 3 labs developed this strange mark. We RMA'd in batches; eventually we learned the glue holding the LCD layers together was failing. The older (and newer) Dell LCDs didn't have that issue.
That's the kind of thing I'd worry about here, especially since there's likely no recourse. Will these LCDs have strange issues, like a watermark caused by the failure of cheap glue?
There is obviously risk. You're ordering from the other side of the world, little customer support, the manual is in Korean, the description itself states that the panels are inferior to the type you'd get from the big boys ... not to mention anything of the electronics, and the units come with a funny plug to top it off.
And that's just the stuff you know off the bat.
For the majority of people, this alone, is unacceptable.
Then again, I'm the sort that's perfectly fine opening up the LCD and replacing a blown cap with a soldering iron. Been there, done that.
Making this a fantastic opportunity =)
That said, they could be perfectly good too. Your guess is as good as mine.
edit: turns out it was I who was not paying attention, not realising that's it not about affordable IPSs in general but this specific size.
TN panels have been down at that price & lower for ages, but not IPS ones.
Oh actually I just remembered that AnyDVD HD transparently decrypts Blu-rays. http://www.slysoft.com/en/anydvdhd.html
I'm a little bit curious though, as to WHY exactly these screen's failure rates are so high, or how they fail. If there's any way to prolong my LCD's life I'd like to be made aware.
I've heard murmurring of people getting Square warranties for these monitors. Might be worth investigating if the failure rate is a concern for you. ~$300+warranty costs will still be significantly less than a Cinema Display.
Also, they don't work with some video cards (I know my Radeon 5750 has occasional trouble syncing with my HP LP2475W for some reason, but that's single-link DVI only. I imagine these monitors are dual-link DVI displays?)
And yes, these monitors are dual-link dvi only.
(in Japanese): http://watchmonoblog.blog71.fc2.com/blog-entry-2304.html
[edit: m3koval rightly points out that this monitor is low resolution so only really fit for gaming or video viewing. My mistake. ]
It's a shame these monitors don't have an HDMI input. Then again, I can't complain given the price.
But, aside from that one bad example, if the text is crisp and there a plenty of pixels, then it is probably good enough for programming and text editing.
Many programmers also do web design, photograph, games, or other tasks that benefit from a better display though.
Especially much better text rendering when you turn on subpixel rendering, which is a huge deal to me (I'm typing this on my 22 inches 2209WA which I had for two years and absolutely love).
Like high quality headphones. It is in no way whatsoever required, but some feel it enhances their enjoyment.
That said, if a terminal constitutes most of your usage, there is honestly little point in getting an IPS display. It just doesn't matter whether or not the blacks are really perfect black, when you're reading text on a white background.
There is a guy I work with who uses two 20" 16:9 TN panels in portrait orientation, and it always looks bad to me. He says it looks fine.
I also feel like maybe the glare coating could be contributing to the problem. I should get a glossy one to test.
Oh, btw, I think the colors are fine from any angle or orientation. The best way I can describe the problem is that the "sharpness" is off.
Yes. Many bloggs with light-gray-on-white text will become less annoying. Even Github used to look like xxxx on a TN panel. Apple-inspired subtle gradients of gray really do look better on IPS.