El Salvador offers to house violent US criminals and deportees of any nation
cnn.com
cnn.com
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
If you look into the history of the poem, it’s actually a bit odd. There was some fundraising exhibition to raise money for the statue’s pedestal. The poem was submitted as part of the exhibition. After the exhibition, the poem had no cultural significance. Then, a full two decades later, a friend of the poem’s author successfully lobbied to have the poem added to the pedestal as an engraving.
Then, being on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty, the poem was picked up as significant by history books and the media, I suppose, and rebroadcasted ad infinitum, especially into the ears of pliable young schoolchildren. You may consider if this is why you find the poem to be meaningful or significant.
So it’s quite weird to reference that poem as if America is in danger of losing some virtue it used to have back at that time, when if anything it is in danger of returning to the actual mainstream views at the time the poem was written.
I literally just quoted the poem. If anything, this thread is the most-interesting literary criticism of it I've seen. It's a Rorscach test of something, and I'm genuinely unsure what that something is.
You and I both know that this is not your first day on the Internet. Are you really claiming to be unfamiliar with the fact that that the poem's most frequent use online is as an all-size-fits-all riposte against any and all immigration enforcement? What pfannkuchen said, "So it’s quite weird to reference that poem as if America is in danger of losing some virtue it used to have back at that time", very well describes its typical usage.
The Lazarus poem is, as I said, typically used in online debate as a universal cudgel. "By quoting this STUNNING AND BRAVE poem, I have 100% defeated your evil racist right-wing anti-migrant rhetoric! I don't have to provide the name of the author, the poem's name, the circumstances behind its writing, when and how it appeared on the pedestal, the standards every immigrant had to meet to pass through Ellis Island, or anything else! IT'S THAT POWERFUL!!!1!!!!!11"
The poem sets out ideals and standards. That neither the country nor its citizens (including their authors) always live up to them does not invalidate their worthiness.
> The Lazarus poem is, as I said, typically used in online debate as a universal cudgel. "By quoting this STUNNING AND BRAVE poem, I have 100% defeated your evil racist right-wing anti-migrant rhetoric! I don't have to provide the name of the author, the poem's name, the circumstances behind its writing, when and how it appeared on the pedestal, the standards every immigrant had to meet to pass through Ellis Island, or anything else! IT'S THAT POWERFUL!!!1!!!!!11"
The poem is famous. Most search engines are free. Are you equally histrionic when someone quotes the Declaration of Independence without title and author?
The history books picked it up after the media, which picked it up--in turn--after WWII.
WWII caused us to embrace our heritage as a nation of immigrants, emphasising our tolerance in the wake of the Holocaust. (The alternative was looking at what we did to the Indians in comparison with the Nazis.) The poem came up because the author was motivated to write it, in part, because she empathised with that era's Jewish immigrants from Europe. (Fleeing the pogroms.)
> was some fundraising exhibition
You're describing the fundraising that built the pedastal. The poem was donated to help pay for it. (France paid for the statue.)
This wasn't "some fundraising," it was the fundraising that built he damn thing. The U.S. government famously didn't pay a dime for the Statue of Liberty.
The "tired, poor, huddled masses" will "breathe free" inside a mega prison?
"The wretched refuse of your teeming shore," send them along with proper payment to "CECOT". Sorry, we no longer accept Bitcoin.
this can’t be allowed to stand. it doesn’t matter the offenses, criminals have Constitutional rights El Salvador de facto does not grant them.
what the fuck are the Democratic governors and states doing right now? the union is being tortured and rewritten to authoritarians before our very eyes.
…and I think the reply answers the question (although I find the answer a horrifying thought as well).
My point is - I don’t think the person replying to you was endorsing the idea, just giving a plausible explanation for why there’s not an immediate uproar: perhaps some folks in government are actually okay with that. :(
I'm not endorsing the behavior, but think like a politician for a moment. Someone comes in and takes care of a legal and ethical mess. All you have to do is get out of the way and not interfere. Not only do you not get smeared with this mess - you even get to be a knight in shining armor who'll replace the bad guy later. And your problem stays gone. Seems like a no-brainer.
Not to sound insensitive, but if they are only holding noncitizen criminal deportees awaiting transport back to their home country and they are able to do that cheaper than we can in the US…I am have a tough time seeing a negative with this.
Defying presidential orders. Suing to block them.
https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-stat...
US prisons cost anywhere from 16k to 70k a year per person
According to whom? A sovereign state has, by definition, no obligations to anything but itself.
Treaties are legally binding inasmuch as the signatories' legal systems treat them as such. The legal enforcement is entirely internal. Countries are constantly geting into fights over who isn't following such and such treaty properly.
(Like, look at North America right now. Or China in respect of UNCLOS.)
>Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual". There's been challenges on this that essentially say "you can be cruel OR unusual, but not both". I'd love to see how they justify a police state foreign prison doesn't qualify as "cruel".
How? I'm not loving this idea, but it's difficult to see why it's cruel or unusual at face value.
https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-t... - https://archive.is/ZkWGP
Given the state of the US prison industrial complex, I also wouldn't be surprised if the prisons El Salvador would provide for US citizens are at least up to par during the likely contractually required inspections. They wouldn't need to be as good as the average US prison, they would only need to be no worse than the worst US prison.
The law professor cited seems to be judging the offer based on the current legal situation and relies on the meaning of "deportation" applying to this. It seems plausible to me that El Salvador and the US could agree on a flimsy legal fig leaf that redefines the facilities in El Salvador that would be used to house US citizen criminals as US territory with the El Salvadoran prison staff being contracted to operate the facilities. The US would only have to be careful to maintain some formal distinction between citizens and non-citizens "relocated" to El Salvador.
This would also establish closer ties between El Salvador and the US, which could benefit El Salvador's owning class economically.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-floats-f...
> El Salvador’s Terrorism Confinement Center, commonly referred to as CECOT, is the country’s largest and newest prison, with a maximum capacity of 40,000 inmates.
> “The fee would be relatively low for the US but significant for us, making our entire prison system sustainable,” he added.
They're still outsourcing jobs to foreign suppliers!!! (/s)
If they can demonstrate they would offer better conditions than 90% of US jails (private or public) and would cost less than half why not?
Could be voluntary too:
- Prisoners who want better conditions could ask to be moved to El Salvador for the duration of their stay
- Prisoners who have regular visitors or any other reason to stay within US just don't
Trump can counter offer asking for a new jail just for American population and all the requirements/conditions to house American citizens
I don’t think lots of American prisons are that good to begin with anyway
This is Guantanamo Bay 2. With even less legal represenation and an ourtright overstep of the 8th amendment (no, you can't "ask" for a cruel and unusual punishment).