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Comment by arjie | Hacker News Reader

I wonder what reasons caused commercial libraries to be easily accessible in my home town of Chennai but the general viewpoint in my now home of San Francisco is that they can't exist. I suppose the biggest differences are cost of materials, cost of labour, and land use requirements.

Libraries do naturally arise from the first-sale doctrine here. I think they would not exist in SF but perhaps Walnut Creek etc would have some.

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Commercial libraries = private library where you pay a membership fee? I’ve not really heard of that here outside of arguably university libraries and similar.

But SF public library has a couple dozen branches or more?

Me neither.

Personally I've never heard of or been to any commercial library before, perhaps it's really good startup idea with internal coffee shop (library first, cafeteria second).

I've been to coffee and books cafe (basically cafeteria first, library second) in France and normally it's full during the day (close at 7 pm).

Yes, the one I went to as a child had a monthly fee and a per-book fee. It had a far more extensive collection than the SFPL library at 4th and Berry in a much more compact space. Most SFPL libraries appear to be homeless-support centers, which diminishes their capacity to carry books since they assign greater room to support functions. But perhaps that is the source of the value observed in the OP.

As an aside, are there university libraries one can join directly for a fee? I was under the impression they were bundled in with tuition etc. If it’s around $100/month I wouldn’t mind that, but perhaps that is an unachievable target.

> As an aside, are there university libraries one can join directly for a fee?

There are. Some are more open than others, but it generally comes down to "give $$, get access".

Here's Stanford's page, for example: https://library.stanford.edu/about-stanford-libraries/visit-...:

One thing worth noting, these accesses do not always include access to electronic resources. Access may only be available from computers that are in the library.

At least the one near me — and it’s only $100/yr.

https://lib.uw.edu/services/borrow/card/fee/

In the US, there are some private archives. And university libraries with varying degrees of public access somewhat depending upon the degree that you can walk in and look like you belong. But real public libraries don't generally have a lot of restrictions.

The Mechanics’ Institute in SF is a “historic membership library”, for one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics%27_Institute,_San_Fr...

A lovely place

Came here to mention this -- private libraries are a thing in the US, but tend to not be heavily promoted, and there aren't many of them.

British council libraries have membership fees, at least in India https://www.britishcouncil.in/library/prices-and-plans

Yes. I had a membership for years. The place looks 19th century, which it is. There are multiple levels of stacks over two floors, carved dark wood, comfy chairs, and librarians who scold anyone who talks.

Members can go there, plug in a laptop, and type. Quietly. It's never crowded.

It's a well-curated, library. It's most useful if you want historical information about 19th and early 20th century technology. They have a complete bound set of Popular Mechanics, from the days when it was a serious technical publication. The multi-volume engineering study for the Panama Canal, with drawings, is there. Current offerings are well chosen and updated regularly.

I’m extremely confused. SF has many libraries and I go to them.

Yes, but almost none are commercial libraries.

San Francisco Public Library has an annual budget of $200 million, i.e. around $20/month per SF resident (including seniors and newborns).

Only 15% of that is spent on books and ebooks.

So perhaps the public libraries are serving most people well enough?

Because government-run free libraries squeeze out any profit-making possibility.

Thankfully.

Can you imagine a modern for-profit library?

Pay fees for access. Pay more fees to "skip the queue" for reserving books. Enjoy ads on your mandatory library app AND in your paid-for library space.

Yeeesh. No thanks. A modern public library is a simple reminder that we CAN have good things.

It wouldn't be hard to imagine paying a not for profit institution directly instead of via taxes. Then its funding would be unaffected by political vagaries, as it would be funded by people's choice.

Because libraries are often used by the people who can least afford it. They offer resume classes, ESL, computer literacy, some will even have collections of clothes that can be borrowed for job interviews. Libraries should be a public service, not a private institution.

I understand what libraries do, but one doesn't preclude the other. Not for profits and charities are basically a one-way funnel of money from people who have it to people who don't, modulo not for profit salaries.

It sounds dismal. In an economic downturn the funding would dry up when people need it most.

I don't see people cancelling their Netflix subscriptions in a downturn; quite the opposite. Libraries could give very good value for money.

I was referring to large grants from wealthy donors, which is how nonprofits operate. To be entirely revenue funded a library would have to charge gym membership prices. I don’t see people going for it.

Netflix was still pretty niche in 2009. You’ve got a lot of poor friends? Who were movie buffs?

My comment wasn't particularly limited to 2009.

So, like, Kindle?

No, Kindle with Special Offers (aka mandatory ads).

In asian countries there are plenty of comic cafes (manga/manhwa/manhua) that charge entry fees and provide amenities to read them.

Blockbuster and other video rental places were basically pay-per-use libraries, but not with an area to consume the media.

And they'll sell your reading habit information. And since it'd be commercial the "pen register" jurisprudence applies meaning that the government can use it to put you on a list. This last point is prevented for public libraries because being part of the government they're bound from gathering that kind of information under the first amendment.

These exist -- see the Mechanics Library in San Francisco. I haven't been there in a while, but it's not as bleak as you suggest. It isn't so different from many public libraries, except less busy and quieter.

I think many private libraries like Mechanics are nonprofits and aren't primarily funded by membership dues, so have little incentive to engage in dark patterns like this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics%27_Institute,_San_...

Legal, reader-friendly digital public libraries are likely to remain very difficult (if not impossible) to create without copyright reform, such as first-sale doctrine for ebooks.

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