Apple and SpaceX link up to support Starlink satellite network on iPhones
bloomberg.com
bloomberg.com
AST is already testing full broadband 5G technology fully integrated into the terrestrial networks without interference with Vodafone and AT&T and will get Verizon beta testing approval very soon.
What Starlink D2C currently has is a spotty text service with such a low signal strength that is useless for anything more. That is what they got approval for from FCC because any stronger signal is causing unacceptable interference with the current terrestrial networks and the terrestrial providers didn't agree to allow them more than that. It will take a year or two at least for Starlink to get to provide more than text and that is actually stated as well in the T-Mobile press release about this.
Other thing is difference in AST and Starlink architecture which makes Starlink not easy to properly integrate in the terrestrial networks since they have gNodeB modules on the satellite, where AST is integrating with the gNodeB modules on the ground.
There are many details that make AST leading in the game of direct-to-cell communication in comparison to other solutions. They just got 1B in cash from investors to expand and speed up deployment of their network, so calling them vaporware might not age well when in couple weeks they start releasing the testing results.
Unverified and unverifiable to date. Unacceptable for an ex-SPAC which nearly got delisted from the exchanges when it dropped to $2 a share a few months back.
>Other thing is difference in AST and Starlink architecture which makes Starlink not easy to properly integrate in the terrestrial networks since they have gNodeB modules on the satellite, where AST is integrating with the gNodeB modules on the ground.
Their bent-pipe architecture is going to have to do a LOT of heavy-lifting to mitigate the impacts of their anti-doppler mechanisms on top of the latency, SNR and jitter. Whole thing hinges on Bluebirds phased-array performance and their ability to handover cells at scale - presuming they've achieved a fraction of what they claim to have achieved using unmodified commercial handsets in real-world environments.
Schadenfreude at SpaceXs very understandable FCC interference issues is a bad look considering ASTS are wholly dependent on SpaceX to put their constellation into LEO!
>There are many details that make AST leading in the game of direct-to-cell communication in comparison to other solutions.
A deSPAC with no major R&D heads of note, headed by an Auteur (Abel Avellan) whose only credence is partnerships with Rakuten/Vodafone leading to board seats.
ASTS have missed every single self-imposed roadmap delivery milestone, have had to hit up their ATM, previously lost 80% of their value from NAV, and are propped up pricewise by a small float and a rabid reddit-style fanbase as a holdover from the SPAC days. They've proven absolutely nothing so far, despite many lofty claims to the contrary, and Rakuten has already hit them up with a multi-million dollar fine for what was effectively non-delivery.
Fact that AST is deSPAC has nothing to do with this. AST has gone out of that phase stellarly.
Second, technological advantages are very verified, by AST doing 20 Mbps download and 5G calls and extremely good spectral efficiency.
Definitely both architectures have pros and cons, but for the fixed-earth cells the bent-pipe is way more optimal then constant switching of the cell position which Starlink has.
ASTS has missed some deadlines, but they are not centering divs, they really do innovation from the first principles and that takes some time. Check TSLA which is 10 years into "we are getting FSD next year out"
Rakuten didn't hit them with the fine, but they exercised a contractual right to get 10 million dollar back if they don't deliver something, but same Rakuten is officially promoting the 2026 as start of the commercial coverage for Japan, if we are taking them as authority.
SpaceX is definitely not the only one on whom they depend for delivery since they use ISRO from India for the first satellite, Falcon9 for the next 8 and New Glen for the rest. And given that they have enough money, they can as well go back to more SpaceX if needed since they have agreement with them.
It is interesting that company without research team has so many patents on this technology and partners with Google, AT&T, Verizon, Vodafone, Rakuten, American Tower and that none of them is seeing how hoax they are. Maybe they will come here and get actually enlightened.
You can check on Starlink test, and what people are reporting here https://x.com/CatSE___ApeX___/status/1884304059110470050
Several things you disagree with or would like to reinterpret. All are perfectly accurate and factual.
> Fact that AST is deSPAC has nothing to do with this. AST has gone out of that phase stellarly.
Look at the work of fiction that is their original DA deck. Every. Single. Milestone. delayed. They went from $40 ATH during SPACmania to $2 last year. Also they've diluted with ATM offerings, which is of huge consequence to those buying in at NAV or higher.
> Definitely both architectures have pros and cons, but for the fixed-earth cells the bent-pipe is way more optimal then constant switching of the cell position which Starlink has.
Yes. One will be supported in NTN 3GPP and one supposedly circumvents the limitation of current 3GPP through undisclosed technological means. Guess which one is the incumbent with a track-record of delivering constellations into LEO, and which one is the startup claiming everything and delivering nothing commercially available or independently verifiable to date?
> Rakuten didn't hit them with the fine, but they exercised a contractual right to get 10 million dollar back if they don't deliver something.
Yes. In common parlance that's referred to as a fine for non-delivery.
>It is interesting that company without research team has so many patents on this technology and partners with Google, AT&T, Verizon, Vodafone, Rakuten, American Tower and that none of them is seeing how hoax they are. Maybe they will come here and get actually enlightened.
Wouldn't be the first time any and all of the above have thrown millions at snake-oil and pipe-dreams. Given what they've actually committed to in terms of cash you can draw your own conclusions.
Abel has had to absolutely tank the share price on multiple occasions - the at-the-market sale in Q4'24 of $400m was particularly telling given not a single one of their strategic partners were willing to step up and bridge them over the bare $440m runway they had to get them through 2025. After the CFO was interpreted as promising no dilution in 2024.
>https://x.com/CatSE___ApeX___/status/1884304059110470050
A swedish farmer/enthusiast on twitter? Not a source.
What is fact is that where Starlink has gotten approval from FCC to test only text messages, AST has gotten approval to test full 5G broadband in Europe, Turkey and USA for now. Not sure how can I interpret it differently then that they have technical advantage and that they might be first to really provide useful commercial service, which they will start providing very soon.
I actually never understood that argument. Why would it be harder to tolerate interference from an adjacent frequency base station hundreds of kilometers away than that of one one roof over?
Are Starlink's band pass filters really bad, or do terrestrial networks depend on geometric isolation (via topography or the horizon) to a larger extent than space-based transmission protocols?
> “Among other results, the satellites have been able to communicate with multiple models of unmodified Samsung, Apple, and Google devices using (T-Mobile’s) PCS G Block spectrum, including in urban and rural areas, indoors and outdoors, and in clear sky and under tree cover”
https://www.pcmag.com/news/spacex-cellular-starlink-system-w...
Anyway T-Mobile is the partner here, not SpaceX
> Under the partnership, SpaceX will locate Starlink ground stations within Google’s data centre properties.
https://theincmagazine.com/google-cloud-has-signed-a-deal-wi...
Starlink used to run in Google cloud and appeared as Google Fi on speed test websites.
But this direct to cell product, the customer is T-Mobile and SpaceX is the seller.
T-Mobile has a partnership with Apple. And modifying phones to support these services is part of what is done
TDS should not be tolerated in polite society.
Hatred of Elon so intense it impairs peoples judgement. This is exactly that.
Calling people that you disagree with deranged or impaired is hardly "leaving personalities out of it". Rhetorical games like that are not helpful or beneficial to the discussion.
tim cook is an active, public homosexual. would it make sense to call this "SpaceX getting into bed with the gays"?
the property "associated to the concept of jew-murder" doesn't automatically make judging a technical company by the alleged beliefs of its operator sensical.
once again, if someone were to state some ground for dislike of gay folks (e.g. calling it a cognitihazard) it would still not make sense to criticize the company they belong to, nor companies that associate with theirs when the subject is an unrelated technical feat.
- tim cook is gay, and we're talking about Apple
- it nicely politically parallels criticizing association with SpaceX based on the alleged proclivities of Elon Musk
but the post could just as easily have been about his favorite shirt color, to reduced rhetorical but identical logical effect.
your stance only makes sense if you think "SpaceX is getting into bed with the gays" /isn't/ a ridiculous thing to say, and is acceptable because being gay is good and being a nazi isn't.
you literally just replied to a post saying the the gay / alleged nazi dynamic wasn't critical to the point with... a moral assessment of being homosexual vs. a "proto-fascist, mid-life-crisis having weirdo".
what are /you/ even on about?
You said: the property "associated to the concept of jew-murder" doesn't automatically make judging a technical company by the alleged beliefs of its operator sensical.
This is where we disagree. The key part of the statement “technical company” isn’t “technical”. It’s “company”.
The reason the mods (cross fingers) haven’t shut this discussion down is because HN isn’t just a tech forum, it’s also a business forum.
From a business perspective, it’s completely fair to criticize the political viewpoint and even national allegiance of another business. And it’s fair to question if Apple is squandering its goodwill by associating with bad actors. Technical competency is irrelevant if people are reluctant to buy your products or others are reluctant to integrate with you due to your political beliefs.
That’s why it’s often recommended that business leaders do not speak outside their area of expertise and if they have to give a political opinion then they should align with the majority and the governments stance (which arguably Musk is doing).
The pictures and video I saw of Elon in the news look nothing like the salutes in documentaries, TV shows, and movies. I did see one picture of Kamala making the same gesture as Elon though.
There's a mind-virus infecting people. It reminds me of when the front page of reddit was about Trump pooping his pants which didn't happen, but...
people want to believe what they want to believe.
I don't care what "side" of politics people are on, I hate it when either side doesn't act in good faith.
(The front page of reddit is constantly politics now, it's no longer interesting, so I no longer waste my time there.)
A picture lacks context. And if that is the one which I think it is, it is clearly an utterly different gesture due to the context. Misrepresenting that is not acting in good faith.
He often does not look normal.
He gave a nazi salute to the USA flag. He saluted once to the crowd, then turned around and saluted to the flag. Sadly many people have not seen the full video.
Nor does he talk "normally", so that's why I don't put much faith in the assumption that he was thinking that he was doing a Nazi salute.
Instead he'll wait till someone else like Marjorie Taylor Greene posts something like "jewish space lasers are responsible for California fires" and he'll retweet "close".
He does this so often, it's like he wants to be technically innocent of wrongdoing, but he's associating with all the bad actors.
Now I would love to see him fulfill his dream of being a Martian pioneer - as long as he doesn't return to earth. In my view, he is an embarrassment to the tech community and the United States. His childish and petty behavior has no place in a civil society.
Nazism should not be tolerated in polite society.
Geostationary communication directly to phones is also possible, by the way, assuming the satellite has a big/directional enough antenna. Here's one from 2011: https://www.cnet.com/reviews/terrestar-genus-at-t-review/
Google's Pixel uses (I believe) the same satellite today too, among others.
As an iPhone user, I really don’t need more instances of Apple telling me what I’m allowed to do at a software level, and on top of that Apple has had no problem allowing network connectivity to networks under all kinds of interesting ownership.
It’s just business
- IRS - FBI - Some tax collecting / assistance group
You’d think the first two know where I live enough to come and collect…
I don't think it would be unreasonable to require customers to have a really cheap mobile plan with no internet if they want to do calls outside of iMessager/WhatsApp/Messenger/etc.
This seems like a stupid idea on so many levels.
It's up to the network operator to efficiently manage their spectrum in a way that does not interfere with other radio users, and mutually between their own base stations.
If T-Mobile/Starlink manage to do that, you get additional connectivity in remote areas on your existing devices. If they don't, and their own network quality degrades, you can switch networks; if they degrade other networks' quality (actually, not just as a hypothetical), hopefully the FCC will shut them down.
This is an extremely power limited application. We're talking signals just above the noise floor here.
Think beam-steering MIMO WiFi where a base station can direct the vast majority of its energy directly toward a client, meaning clients in other directions never see the transmission and so the noise floor is lower and bandwidth higher. Similarly such systems can "see" which direction a transmission comes from and so distinguish multiple clients transmitting simultaneously - much the same way your eyes have no trouble seeing two people waving at you from different directions even if they're twins and dressed identically: the spatial information is sufficient to tell them apart.
To a rough approximation the delta between the theoretical limit and practical limit is computationally driven these days and we've gotten really good at the computation part.
That would not be possible, as neither access points nor clients are licensed to use nearly enough transmission power to bridge the distances required (and if they were, the spectrum would become usable for terrestrial uses).
> Access will be available "regardless of your carrier plan"
https://www.pcmag.com/news/googles-pixel-9-phones-get-their-...
Look at he stuff from Ubiquiti.
And 15 and 14. I don't know about 13.
So you don't even need the latest gear to do it.
The only thing this icon does seem to respect is general geolocation (i.e. I haven't seen it in unsupported countries). You'll only know if you have satellite connectivity if you actually try using it.
I have an iPhone X that's not signed up with any network, and isn't capable of satellite communications, but still displays the SOS icon because it can make 911 calls.
There will be no point other than simplicity / physical buttons to get a Garmin watch over an Apple watch if you have an iPhone pretty soon.
Garmin w/ eink screen, not great app, bad Apple compatibility = $300, latest AW series 10 = $380
On the other hand, Garmin UX is horrible and the watch faces are utterly ugly
(saying as former Apple Watch owner and now Garmin FR 965)
These are serious sport and adventure watches, apple doesnt really have a comparable product for many folks, ie for me or my wife (who has apple+garmin mix). I personally also prefer wearing round watches than blocky mini phone. Latest garmins, any garmins, with oled displays look much cooler.
StarLink's definition of "resident" and "roaming" might change a little bit over time.
StarLink has been quite good in surrounding the countries where they stand to make a lot of money (like South Africa) with "friendly" countries. So, due to roaming, South Africa is losing out on a lot of tax revenue (VAT) and other economic benefits. Speculation is that they will give in.
I remember hearing that this used to be the case, but this is a pretty blatant violation of international law and regulations, and I think by now roaming is also technically disabled in countries that didn't grant them a license.
Their own support site is a bit ambiguous:
> If your new location is not in an authorized territory (marked "Available" or "Waitlist" on the Starlink map), your service may be immediately suspended.
Surely international law can't force StarLink to detect where their terminals are. Or force StarLink to block their signals from leaking into neighbouring countries.
They won't market or distribute their terminals in countries where it is illegal.
So it's up to customs to seize terminals when they cross the borders or communications regulators to seize terminals after they came in.
At this stage, I think StarLink is clamping down on roaming because they don't want to jeopardize their negotiations with the SA government.
Isn't is moreso that _laws_ care a lot about national borders? And Starlink has to care about laws to operate?
Shooting-down Starlink satellites is economically infeasible, never mind the fratricide it would cause to the aggressor's own LEO assets.
Violating international treaties and national law of almost all countries and potentially getting their assets seized, or worst case serving as a casus belli (economic or kinetic) in case the US does not enforce claims of other nations against them?
MAYBE in the future text messaging service. Text only.
Note: Text messaging currently actually works on some Samsung phones on T-mobile, if you request to join the beta.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/t-mobile-begins-cellular-starlink...
Emergency SOS over Starlink works on recent pixel phones, which appears to provide text chat with emergency services:
Um well yeah the whole idea of starlink direct to cell is that it works with unmodified mobile phones so this isn't really a suprise.
What surprises me more is that apple is even working with starlink considering they have a competing service together with globalstar. Which is kinda their moat since all attempts on the Android side have failed (qualcomm had a deal with iridium and killed it within the year before it even launched, and bullitt (CAT/Motorola) which had a deal with Inmarsat went bankrupt. The sat part was spun off but without ongoing hardware releases this will be a dead end.
Apple also works with competing terrestrial cellular network companies.
It's also a USP for Apple in the mobile market right now.
Globalstar is entirely abstracted away from the consumer. In that manner, it’s similar to TSMC. (Though far less critical.)
Generally, Apple abhors single-supplier relationships. Having multiple suppliers reduces risk, improves their negotiation leverage, etc.
The latest Pixels have Satellite SOS [1].
[1] https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/15254448?hl=en
As far as I'm aware, the only changes are in software, so that the phone doesn't try to switch to satellite "towers" unless it really has no other option.
Apple hates being dependent on one company. They always use competing suppliers in their chain because it gives them more leverage. SpaceX vs Globalstar is a good strategy if one or the other has a problem or wants to negotiate something crazy.
In the past they’ve even sourced iPhone processors from both TSMC and Samsung (albeit mixed results).
I don’t think Apple needs the financial leverage, I think they don’t want to put all their bets on a lame horse.
Starlink - by design - is not going to have as good coverage (at least, at a mass market consumer price). And that’s okay
It’ll be interesting to see if Apple rolls out data via Starlink
I think people who don't go outside much underestimate how much this is used.
Almost every week a hiker or tourist or someone is rescued in the wilds of California or Idaho or Nevada thanks to an iPhone SOS signal. You don't see it in the news much because it happens so often that it's not really news anymore.
A friend recently joked that Apple is starving the coyotes of a regular food source.
They’d certainly notice the management headache.
Starlink is expected to offer greater bandwidth in the future, but Globalstar allowed Apple to start offering emergency SOS service with 2022 devices.
5G (at least the non-NTN ,non-IoT variants) is just too chatty to support cell sizes that big, is my suspicion. If you can get the phones to go into a special "texting only" mode (whether that's over IP using IMS, which also seems somewhat chatty, or something lower level and more efficient), that would probably help a lot, and I assume this is what Apple is doing in this firmware update.
I imagine though that Starlink DTC will only be visible to phones in really remote areas, as it uses the same frequenties as terrestrial network it will be easily overwhelmed by traffic from nearby towers.
It's not that the phone communicates directly with the satellite, right?
No one wants to do that across all of Alaska or the Australian outback.
You need power as well as fiber.
So, location-dependent.
Directionality does make an antenna larger as it usually involves reflectors and directors, the size and placement of which is also a fraction of the wavelength, but if they are actually able to do direct to phone with decent reception and arbitrary coverage, then that beats having to set up base stations to cover a small circle even if you get 10-15 dB better SNR.
This might give you LTE in, say, all of the Australian outback, all of Alaska, along the Andes mountain range, etc.
> fiber
I would think the electromagnetic waves the phone sends are going out in a sphere, right? Then the loss on the way to the satellite must be gigantic.
For the last 30 years.
And the Starlink satellites are much closer to Earth than the satellites we used to hit back then.
You can just about get SMS emergency coverage with the latest generation of modems and aerials designed for the purpose. NTN standards are a long way off being set.
NTN phones have been available since the early 2010s, some even using geostationary satellites (which are 100 times farther away).
If you mean 5G NTN, I believe the newer Pixel models already use that already, and I've been using it using a dedicated device since Summer 2023. They actually use at least some of the same satellites of the 2010s voice service, which I believe is no longer being offered.
Rel-18, the initial release for 5G-Advanced, only brought in the support for the new frequency bands for NTN above 10 GHz - the Ka band where most of our interest lies for large-scale large-bandwidth provisionment - in June of last year for equipment manufacturers.
https://www.lightreading.com/6g/5g-advanced-arrives-with-3gp...
You're not wrong in saying that most of what we hope to be achieved with NTN is, to be fair, NTN-NR - or 5G NTN - as a lot of it depends on NR technologies like MIMO and beamforming in certain spectrums.
Skylo did the first rollout of emergency SMS in Europe as per the 3GPP Release 17 specifications for Direct-to-Handset (D2H) connectivity in Q4 of last year. Note that Rel 17 designated only two usable frequency bands in Release 17 for 5G NTN use in the 5G FR1 range
https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2024/11/26/deutsche-telekom-...
I've been already using that exact service in Summer 2023 in both the US and Europe (Bullit, via Sklyo and using Echostar/Terrestar satellites, I believe). It's possible that that was using pre-release specifications, though.
To me at least, everything else is just noise when a new phone comes out.
And sats for mobile aren't really a big thing. Qualcomm worked on it and killed it, Samsung did for a while and killed it, Bullitt had it and it was a fringe thing before they collapsed. Only Apple really stood by it. And it's really only their moat, they're still not selling subscriptions.
Starlink direct to cell is only available on a fraction of sats, even those launched now. They won't be able to launch a full direct to cell fleet until starship comes online due to the added size and weight of the sats.
As an android user I still don't have any replacement for my Garmin inreach which is really a pain because Garmin put the prices up considerably. I was hoping to be able to replace it by now. Also, Bullitt's service is kinda a no go for emergencies because it uses a geostationary network so it won't work from valleys with mountains to the south (in the Northern hemisphere that is). Starlink, globalstar (apple) and Iridium (qualcomm, until they killed the deal) don't have this issue being low earth orbit.
I guess the emergency service isn't the big selling point everyone thought it was and the capacity isn't there yet for much more than text messaging yet.
The product and service itself is pretty reliable though. I've taken my Inreach in all sorts of places and had only rare issues with it.
This is changing soon. They will now charge a keepalive fee per month. Previously you could pay 40 per year and just activate it for the months you needed it (the freedom plans). Those are gone unfortunately. For an irregular user it now goes from 40 to 120$ per year to keep it active.
And yeah I wish there was a bit more competition here. Right now inreach is still the best for me even compared to PLBs though. Because inreach can do 10-minute breadcrumbs. So even when you have a bad fall the homefront can see where you were last.
A PLB requires the user to be conscious to turn it on and unfold the antenna. And Apple's solution requires aiming at the satellite.
The support is standards based and while they are all wetting their feet with a preferred partner, with minimal messaging support focused on emergency use cases, there is enough traction to flush out major use cases across all carriers, with out of the box enablement at the mobile platform layer integrated on supported newer devices with the requisite radio HW.
Seriously, I am fascinated by all the advanced in AI, but man, I don't need an AI assistant in my Adobe PDF reader.
Sadly there's been zero investment it seems in better user interfaces, settings screens have become a joke, cameras seem to have stagnated
https://support.apple.com/en-us/101573
So by all means, if you rather not be able to text someone that you're in the middle of nowhere in danger with otherwise no signal, I don't see why you would disable that. Like its literally for SOS use.
In the end, the Starlink satellites will be just another set of cell towers, just with a slightly unusual velocity and altitude. You already can't e.g. disable using T-Mobile base stations leased by a particular land or infrastructure owner.
Not everyone cares about the political drama associated with companies that some dude has an ownership stake in.