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Comment by liontwist | Hacker News Reader

I don’t understand the issue. Protesting is legal. Are we advocating for illegal activity?

In the US, free speech is legal. You also have a right to congregate but lots of institutions find ways to subvert that, often by creating private spaces that seem public (and effectively are public but I am not a lawyer). The whole concept of civil disobedience in the US goes back to the Mexican American war, which many Americans felt was an opportunity to expand slavery to new states. Another example is the civil rights movement, where people thought it was acceptable to sit in the wrong part of the bus, even though it was against the law.

I am not advocating for breaking the law. You have to understand that if a police person or a security guard violates your rights of free expression you may not get bailed out by the ACLU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Quebec_student_protests

Mostly legal protests that got violently repressed by enforcement of unconstitutional laws in Quebec.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_G20_Toronto_summit_protes...

Same thing in Toronto.

Canada rates very high on democracy indexes. Even if you beat the charge in court you can still get arrested on bullshit in every country.

1) Protesting is illegal in many parts of the world.

2) Authoritarians have been known to act illegally to solidify their power.

Are we imagining only “good guys” will be the ones breaking the law?

No, basically by definition. What's your point?

That depends on whether the police like your protest.

There’s some strategic ambiguity going on here. If you’re going to a protest that looks like the Women’s March on Inauguration Day of 2017, you don’t have to worry about this kind of thing. If you’re starting fires or breaking into the Capitol building, you definitely do have to worry about this sort of thing. And just to make things even muddier, the exact same protest can radically change from one to the other based on specifics of time and place. In the summer of 2020, Seattle and Portland had mostly peaceful and uneventful protests by day in the exact same places where shootings and arsons would break out after dark, while on January 6th, just as some of the rioters were trying to force their way through the windows on one side of the Capitol building and clashing with Capitol Police, on the other side of the Capitol they were peacefully walking through wide open gates and doorways and milling around in the hallways as the Capitol Police looked on. And yeah, the peaceful ones get prosecuted sometimes too.

I think the "strategic ambiguity" here is ethics. Civil rights protestors were clearly breaking the law when they sat at diners that wouldn't serve black people. But who today thinks they were wrong? When I was a kid, students protested at Universities to divest from Apartheid era South Africa.

People can agree on what the law is, but they don't always agree on what is right. Sometimes a democratic government will zealously defend a law, war or principal that later generations of the same government will disavow.

Yeah, I think a key point here is recognizing that the law isn’t always aligned with morality, depending on the issue you’re protesting for/against.

How would you feel if your political opponents made similar justifications? Are they laws for the thee and not for me?

I think you misunderstood me. My point is not that the law should align perfectly with my morality, it’s that in a functional democracy, there will _always_ be parties that have a moral position that does not align with the law. I believe it should be legal for them to protest, but in many cases it is not (speaking globally, not just in the USA). So I think it is good for protesters to be able to protect themselves, because my aspiration is that anyone who disagrees with the state should be able to make their voice heard.

So yes, to answer your question, I think my political opponents should be able to protest. If the state doesn’t allow them to, I am fine with them using tools to protect themselves legally.

The line I draw this at is violence and looting from innocents.

It seems you phrased your response as a “gotcha” but I’m really not sure what point you’re trying to make?

IIUC, the parent [1] is talking about 2 scenarios going on

1. If you're planning to commit arson you want to have encrypted radios to not get caught.

2. If you're planning a peaceful protest at a location somebody might commit arson you want an encrypted radio so you don't get unfairly punished.

I don't think anybody is arguing that (1) is desirable. They're arguing that the people involved with (2) shouldn't be punished for (1)'s crimes.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42833935

Agree, nobody (at least not I) is suggesting the former

> Civil rights protestors were clearly breaking the law when they sat at diners that wouldn't serve black people.

Sure, and then they let the police arrest them because the sight of peaceful people being hauled off to jail for sitting at the wrong diner or on the wrong seat on the bus is the statement. It’s called civil disobedience; Thoreau both practiced it and wrote about it a century before the civil rights movement. What none of those people did was try to obscure the fact that they were breaking the law or evade the consequences. Their plan was to go to jail over and over again to make the injustice of the system constantly manifest. So how does this even remotely apply to the article, which is about trying to avoid legal consequences?

>Protesting is legal

first of all, where?

secondly, what has legality of protest got to do with privacy?

The concern of your phone being taken by authorities or capturing incriminating evidence

Are you making the "if you've got nothing to hide" argument?

That would be sharing your phone and password with the police because there is nothing to hide.

I’m asking why you’re expecting to be booked by authorities and your phone confiscated for attending a “protest”.

1. because the U.S. is not the only country on Earth

2. because even in nations with strong constitutional protections, law enforcement likes to play dirty

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