Hacker News Reader

Comment by bilekas | Hacker News Reader

> I didn’t realize this data was being collected, but it seemed that we had agreed to the STARLINK enrollment when we purchased it.

This is mind blowing to me.. Number 1 why you need a car connected to the internet all the time ? And how you're not required to sign at least 10 forms to confirm you understand that ALL of your travel data will be recorded and distributed at will.

View on HN

There was a recent HN posting on the US banning Chinese car brands from being connected to the internet. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42706212

If Chinese companies comply with the ban by providing car models without internet connectivity, it's hilarious to me that that the nationalist regulation could make Chinese branded vehicles more desirable from a security & privacy standpoint.

The current 100% tariff on Chinese EV’s will negate that advantage for American consumers.

In the short term. In the medium term it just means that when they finally do break in they will demolish the incumbent. This is exactly what happened with the US auto industry in the 80. Protecting an industry with tariffs and legislation often makes that industry lazy and slow to innovate and eventually just kills it because they have forgotten how to compete.

Europe doesn't have that high tariffs on them, neither does rest of the world. Chinese manufacturers will continue their global meteoric rise whether they are successful in US or not, its just 4% of population even if wealthy.

And if they actually do provide better cars (more secure and respecting privacy while massively cheaper), who am I to complain.

> Number 1 why you need a car connected to the internet all the time

To open the car with an app (programming against Bluetooth is harder than calling a web API), or honk the horn if you lost it in a large parking lot.

> And how you're not required to sign at least 10 forms to confirm you understand that ALL of your travel data will be recorded and distributed at will.

Legally speaking, I believe that depends on your local privacy laws. Practically speaking, car makers (and government agencies) love these features for troubleshooting and tech support, or for flagging crashes before any authorities or local press have time to arrive (think Tesla).

Don't ask them about finding your stolen car, though. Then the data may suddenly not be available.

> To open the car with an app (programming against Bluetooth is harder than calling a web API), or honk the horn if you lost it in a large parking lot

I really hope this was sarcastic. How did we ever manage to find our cars before IoT cars …

You can also do other stuff like start the climate controls so the car is comfortable before you reach it on hot or cold days.

These things could certainly be convenient, de-icing while you're having breakfast etc but surely you don't need my location data recorded for those services ?

Maybe if there was a list of options I could select from then I guess it's fine.

I could do that with a key fob well before connected cars were a thing. People just choose to ignore the most basic of information

And car manufacturers are incentivized to remove such valuable and logical features. Enshittification abounds.

My Subaru supports remote start if you pay for the upgraded Starlink plan but if you want to do it from the keyfob, you have to buy some module and carry around an extra keyfob solely dedicated to remote start. It's a little ridiculous. They could have easily just made remote start something where you click and hold a button or whatever like any other car with that feature on the fob.

I'm not sure which model you have, but I don't think that's true. I think instead it's that unless you pay for the remote start upgrade (which as you say includes the extra fob) you can't start your car using the normal keyfob. But if you have the upgrade, you can also use the keyfob if you are close enough. At least, that's how it works for our 2018 Outback.

I think I've only used the dedicated remote start fob a couple times to test it, but I use the keyfob for remote starting frequently. If you want to try, here are some 3rd party instructions for which buttons to press to make it work: https://www.wheelsjoint.com/how-to-remote-start-subaru-outba...

Thanks, I wasn't entirely sure how it worked. I kept seeing instructions online for which buttons to press to do a remote start from the keyfob but nothing mentioned the required add-ons to make it work. I ended up just paying for the Starlink subscription at least for the cold months. I was hoping my Ascent would do an all windows roll down from the fob like some other cars I've had in the past but looks like it doesn't support that either. I plan to have this car for a long time so I may just invest in the remote start package or a competing product just to have the air running prior to getting in. Black exterior and interior was our only option so I'm not excited about summer.

IMO it's a mixed bag. Being able to start the process from further away than your key fob is an improvement because it can get actually warm if you're walking to it rather than it just have a minute head start which at idle doesn't always get the engine warm enough to be nice and toasty.

For electric vehicles there's also benefits when charging because you can actually leave your vehicle and check if it's charged while you eat/shop/walk/etc to kill the time.

Then if you have kids that drive but don't have their own vehicle yet the location and speed tracking a lot of these apps provide is probably a big plus to them too. I'd certainly feel more comfortable with my kid using a car knowing I can find where they are and that they'll be a bit safer drivers since they can actually be caught speeding, I know I was reckless knowing there was basically no way for my parents to know.

None of this requires collection and storage of location long term but that's companies just following the profit motive of our entire system. It's shitty and bad they're allowed to do it but I'm hardly surprised that they do.

> could do that with a key fob well before connected cars were a thing

I’ve started my Subaru in the lot at 6,500’ from the top of the mountain at 10,500’. A fob isn’t going to scream over that distance.

(None of this requires tracking, however, much less storing a year’s location off the car.)

That sounds like an awfully ridiculous thing to do

Just because you can does not mean you should (or actually need to)

> because you can does not mean you should (or actually need to)

Most people don’t need to drive. Out of their driving, most of it is superfluous.

Pretty much everyone in my town with remote start uses it. Particularly if it’s a day where temperatures are close to 0°F and you’re weighing another run.

> Most people don’t need to drive.

This is one of those comments that just tells everyone reading that you don't think much outside whatever area you dwell. There are lots of people not anywhere near you that do need to drive. Not accepting not everyone is like you is just small minded, and makes the conversation not worth having

> lots of people not anywhere near you that do need to drive

I live in Wyoming. Most people around me do need to drive. I’m saying take most vehicle-miles travelled in private cars and you’ll find that most people—being in or near cities—don’t need to take most of their trips. (Most trips I take don’t need to be taken, certainly not by private cars,)

I’m also not the one arguing that they shouldn’t do things that are nice but not necessary: you are. I’m analogizing a lazy summer trip to the grocery store to pick up a forgotten ingredient (when a bike would do fine, or hell, borrowing from a neighbour) with remote start. It’s convenient, marginally costless and rewarding in its own little way.

"most" != "everyone"

You can also do other stuff like start the climate controls so the car is comfortable before you reach it on hot or cold days.

Also a solved problem. This one since at least the 1970's. No internet required.

I'd only really heard of it as an aftermarket feature you had to mod onto the vehicle not as a base part of a package. At least not in the low market range you can get that feature now. Used EVs less than 30k come with that feature now.

I can't tell sometimes if people are trolling on HN or just young. Many so called great innovations I see are just stuff that was available decades ago but didn't involve ad tech predators.

You can tell this stuff isn't that interesting to people otherwise they'd upcharge you for it instead of using it as a pathetic piece of bait for a trap.

From five miles away?

Just as an aside - a friend had their car nicked in NYC this winter. He was able to tell the cops the car location from some Toyota find my car type thing. The cops said they saw nothing on the street so unless he could come and make the horn beep infront of a garage - and then get a warrant - there was nothing more to do.

He now has a new vehicle.

I'm starting to come around to the idea in general actually with all the comments promoting the benefits. I still don't see why travel locations need to be recorded though. A pining service would suffice if it was always connected.

Is your comment supporting the find my car feature or saying it was useless?

The cops could only act if the car was on the street without getting a warrant first and they would not even consider that unless he went to the area in question and made the car do something distinctive enough.

We all know that even if the cops would file for the warrant, it would not happen quickly and the car would be chopped and gone long before.

So basically, yes this was a useless feature. Perhaps if it happened in a small town/remote area the outcome might have been different. Major city? I doubt the result would be much different than NYC.

This might say more about the NYPD than Toyota

If I'm a sensible person running a police department, with full knowledge of the here-described bugs and hazards as well as the deep experience all police get in the general "people being jerks" spectrum, it's gonna take a lot more than someone on the phone saying "my car manufacturer's app says the car is in there" to bust down the doors of some random place.

a friend had their car nicked in NYC this winter. He was able to tell the cops the car location from some Toyota find my car type thing. The cops said they saw nothing on the street so unless he could come and make the horn beep infront of a garage - and then get a warrant - there was nothing more to do.

Here's the way it's done with Volvos (from the manual):

   If the vehicle has been stolen or otherwise used without permission, the vehicle's owner, police and Volvo Assistance can agree to track the vehicle.
 
   Note
   This applies even if the vehicle has been opened and stolen using the associated remote key.
   
   The following needs to be done:

   1. Contact Volvo Assistance and say that you need help tracking the vehicle. Tracking begins.
   2. File a police report.
   3. Contact Volvo Assistance again and give them the police case number.
   4. Volvo Assistance notifies the police of the vehicle's location.

5. Police thank you/volvo and tell you you'll probably never get your car back (because that requires effort on their part).

honk the horn if you lost it in a large parking lot.

Solved problem since at least the late 1980's. No internet required.

All cars in Europe must be connected to the internet at all times by law, to determine their location, in case of an accident the law states.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em...

In the US a bill was passed requiring driver impairment equipment on all vehicles and automatic deactivation of the vehicle if the driver is determined to be impaired. Current impairment technology monitors head and eye movement and/or blood or breath.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-402773429497

In general, a lot of things in cars are for the law rather than the owner. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just is what it is. Emissions is the biggest one.

> All cars in Europe must be connected to the internet at all times by law, to determine their location

The source you link very explicitly contradicts that:

> Your eCall system is only activated if your vehicle is involved in a serious accident. The rest of the time the system remains inactive. This means that when you are simply driving your vehicle, no tracking (registering your car's position or monitoring your driving) or transmission of data takes place.

(Also not in Europe but in the EU, there's a difference)

how does it determine "serious accident"?

I'll try to dig up the criteria someday, if they're written down, but I imagine that "anything that triggered airbag inflation" is a good approximation.

> All cars in Europe must be connected to the internet at all times by law, to determine their location, in case of an accident the law states.

It isn't connected to 'the internet' either, its an emergency call activation service. IE you can actuvate it to call 112 (Emergency services) when needed without a charge, infact it uses a SIM card to do so.

Infact on your link it doesn't mention 'online' or 'internet' anywhere/

That's a bizarre interpretation of 'cars in Europe must have a system to automnatically call emergency services when they crash/their airbags deploy'

Remote start, climate etc from the app all require and always on connection (how else?). Tesla has the same thing.

I use the remote app often - quite useful.

Remote start does not require an app nor an always on connection. I was able to do this with a key fob in the early 00s

Neither does climate control. If I remote start my Civic with its fob, it will heat or cool to the desired temperature I left it on. (And it will run the defroster if it's below a certain temperature outside.)

Having to think about the climate control is an anti-feature in itself, when that's a basic thermostat feature...

I know how key fobs work, thank you.

I mean the ability to control the car remotely without line of sight or being anywhere near it, such as turning on the climate to warm up the car while still in a building so it's not freezing cold when we get back to the car with the kids, or while the car is in the garage, locking the car remotely because you're blocks away and aren't 100% sure you locked it before you left, opening the windows slightly so the car doesn't overheat in hot weather (Subaru doesn't do this unfortunately, but the Tesla does). The one thing it doesn't do which I wish it did, is roll up the windows remotely.

Maybe it's because I don't live in a cold climate, but I've never wanted to do this.

It's because you don't live in a cold climate.

Key fob works great if the car is close. Remote start by app is fantastic when it’s farther away.

Why would you want to remote start a car if you are a mile away?

I used to commute into the city by express bus. Drive to Metro Transit Park-n-Ride lot, park the car and get on the bus.

On the way back a lot of people would start their cars (via app) when about 5 minutes away from the lot. That translates to about 4-5 miles at freeway speed.

Alternately, at the office, some people parked at a lot that was about a mile away and it's nice to be able to start your car when it's 95F or -15F so it's comfortable when you get there.

All I see is a waste of gasoline. Back when I was living in a cold country and drove a car early in the morning I would just use gloves, keep my jacket and heat my seat with a fart. ;-)

Whatever works for you. Me, I like my creature comforts.

Umm… maybe not a mile, but if you’re walking ten minutes in ice/snow (maybe a quarter mile), it is VERY nice to have it warm when you get there. I’m surprised this is surprising.

European eCall directive requires a sim card

Because it has an SOS feature.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com