Japan's original decluttering guru (no, not that one) | Hacker News Reader

Japan's original decluttering guru (no, not that one)

nytimes.com

84 pointswhack63 comments

I must say, however, that Marie Kondo's method does work well. I've used it on several occasions, and felt good about it afterwards.

The only thing I find it doesn't work well with are the dozens of old SUN computers I have in my basement, because they all SPARC joy.

Oh boy. Take your upvote and go.

"Spark joy" was actually sort of just made up by the English translator. I do think it's cute but the original was something like "makes your heart flutter", which is a bit stranger.

A side effect of this is it got bad reviews from British people because they're offended by the idea of feeling joy.

The original term is ときめく (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%A8%E3%81%8D%E3%82%81%E...).

I would translate as "anticipation-inducing"

Unwieldy, but probably captures the level

Groan

Maybe it would help to store all the pizza boxes vertically in a drawer?

> unnecessary items

Here’s the thing. I’ve got at least two family members that could probably be classified as hoarders. They keep a bunch of stuff that they really should get rid of. But at least part of this is, I believe, ingrained upon them by their relatively impoverished upbringing. They would hang onto items of marginal value because that marginal value means more when you have to scrape by.

Decluttering is a luxury. Rich people can throw out their rarely-used junk because it’s trivial for them to buy new stuff should the need arise. Poor people keep the “junk” because that little bit of potential residual value is a part of their livelihood.

Most people should put their stack of National Geographics in the recycling bin, because it isn’t worth their time to find the person who’ll give them five bucks for it. For some people, that five bucks matters.

Having grown up not quite dirt poor when young, I have to fight that "this might be useful later, what if you waste ten bucks by throwing it out???" hoarding tendency myself. It'e one of those "actually, it's okay to spend money sometimes" things that it's hard to move on from.

My wife grew up in an extremely wealthy home yet also fights this tendency. She has to leave the room if I'm going to throw out food that has gone bad, because seeing someone throw food in the trash makes her feel physically ill.

Nowadays the most expensive thing at home is space, thanks to high property prices, so it's much easier to justify getting rid of clutter

My maternal grandmother and mom were/are hoarders. I don't fully agree with your "decluttering is a luxury" statement. There's certainly an element of that, because times were lean for them sometimes. I think the hoarding is really a proxy for control, not for direct utility - and sometimes the instinct can go wrong and there's no value at all, or negative value, to the continued accumulation. Everyone, rich or poor, needs space to walk around and space to prepare food or wash dishes. Obviously there's a spectrum of behavior when it comes to these things from "cluttered, but mostly functional" to "need a strategy, dust mask and boots to cross the room". I've seen way too much of the latter to be fully on board with your point.

Here's a great blog about two sisters cleaning up their late father's mess I've found fascinating and helpful in dealing with my familys' situation: https://tetanusburger.blogspot.com/

Am I the only one to have a problem with the "decluttering" movement.

It is not that I think that clutter is a good thing, but I think that decluttering focuses on the wrong side of the problem. That is, the real problem is not with what you are keeping, it is with what you are getting. Otherwise, it just encourages over-consumption.

Ok, your decluttered your house, disposing of all your junk, but now what? If you continue buying junk, then clutter will come back, then you will dispose of it, again, just to buy it again later. If you are doing that, you are better off keeping your clutter, at least it will make you think twice before buying some crap.

And by the way, I find it particularly ironic that Marie Kondo sells a whole lot of crap on her website, as if the message was "get rid of your stuff so you can put mine in its place".

The ideas are not bad, but I'd rather make them about the future rather than about the past. Don't ask yourself "does it spark joy" at home, ask yourself "will it spark joy" when you are shopping. Find the right place for the stuff you intend to buy, not for what you already have.

It is a shame that Marie Kondo’s website is selling clutter - I haven’t looked myself, but I believe it. It felt inevitable.

From memory, her first famous book did address accumulating possessions quite well. You were supposed to have a location in mind to store everything before you bought it - or even accepting a gift. She also discouraged buying storage boxes - suggesting repurposing instead.

Part of the idea of decluttering is that it makes you more aware about your possessions and that changes your consumption habit / buying behaviour because you become more attuned / aware of your mindset behind ownerships of things and how you value it. So you tend to think twice (i.e. properly evaluate) before buying something if you know you are going to throw it away it later. In certain cases, you tend to buy something second-hand rather than new (if it is for short-term use only) not just to save money, but to also reduce waste.

I found moving to be a good declutterring method. It’s a definite event to clean up most things in life. The difficulties in moving will make you think twice about acquiring unnecessary stuffs once settled down.

Agreed. I think most people would be a lot happier if they got rid of half their stuff.

Then, next year, get rid of half again. We all keep so much and acquire so much that brings stress not joy.

The only thing I regret getting rid of is books. I've moved many times and thinned my shelves severely each time. In retrospect I realize that I often want to refer back to them or show someone else something I had read. That being said I'd be lying if I said the value wasn't mostly sentimental.

Books can become this really religious thing for a lot of people. I take stuff down for the annual library book sale fairly regularly--and I've intensified over the past year or two. I know that a lot will end up pulped anyway but I'm at the point where I know a lot of what I still own won't be re-read or consulted. Still have way too much.

I was a books person, and got rid of all of my books.

Maybe all is easier than some?

Only on rare occasions do I miss any of them, and that's not enough to make carting them around and storing them worthwhile.

Also, having the the books go to good homes makes a difference in regrets. My sf collection, for example, got more use in its public library home, than I ever could've given it. And this one book that I think was inscribed by a famous writer (not their own book, but a gift to a friend of theirs), and which had randomly come into my hands, I in turn randomly gave to an ER nurse who'd had asked about it.

The only books I really should've kept were the two that friends had inscribed to me, but those were lost in a tricky move.

I got rid of all my books a while ago and it was freeing. No more Tsondoku for me :)

Previously, I always gave away books to friends after reading. Knowing someone else will enjoy them mitigates any loss aversion emotions (for me at least).

I only kept books I would read again. But at some point I realized that was getting away from me, and I had all of these books I had in fact read twice but ten-plus years ago. The question was if I would read them a third or fourth time.

New books keep coming out, and this might be the last time in your life you read this book, and then you give it away. That statement is pretty straightforward when you’re young. When you get older it takes on a different meaning. I won’t have time for this.

So far it’s only been a couple of series. I’ve had a lot of free time this year and I’ve read 3 times as many books as I have in my next best year in the last decade, so I may be able to revise that down, however I’ve also added a lot of authors in that process, which just puts more pressure on award winning books from thirty, sixty years ago.

Moving is awesome for that reason. You are forced to really reckon with "do I care enough about this to put effort into moving it", and most times the answer will be no. Moving is a pain for other reasons though.

“I have moved this stupid thing twice already and almost never use it. I should borrow one instead.”

It’s funny how items that are easy to pack survive a lot longer than ones that are awkward.

I just had a kitchen fire which also dumped smoke throughout the house and a big cleaning operation is going on. I've resolved that a lot of the stuff that is in the process of being removed from shelves, cabinets, closets, etc. won't go back.

I had already pruned a fair bit, especially over the last year, but this will be a real forcing function.

This is true for all "life changing" events, which for some people can be as simple as changing jobs or even stepping outside.

Getting forced out of your comfort zone helps change your perspective on things.

Similarly, if you somehow get used to moving, then moving will no longer elicit that perspective change.

After moving every 1-2 years, many times -- and eventually getting all my belongings down to literally a few boxes, 2 suitcases, and a futon -- it bothered me to own things.

The next apartment I moved into was a dump. I promised myself it was only for a year, and I wasn't even going to buy a dresser for my clothes. I simply used said 2 suitcases, slid under said futon's frame.

A few years later, I was still in the same place, still "living out of a suitcase", still averse to owning things that would make leaving more difficult.

My current place, I go through cycles of acquiring comforts and conveniences, and then culling things I don't really need in the near term, repeat.

Buying my first bed was a weird experience. Every time I move from now on, I’ll need a truck to do so, not just family and friends. At that point a couch instead of chairs is a “might as well” moment.

Yep, I remember that. Before getting one, I slept on the carpet with a sheet in a couple apartments.

And mattresses and sofas indeed are what complicates a lot of moving logistics, IME. Everything else I could move myself, even cross-town on a cart, without renting a van. I'm thinking, my next move, it might be easier/cheaper just to give them away, and buy new ones on the other side.

If you only moved every six or so years that’s not actually a terrible plan. Most of us keep out mattresses too long. I hesitate to think how old mine is.

I don't know whether it helps mattress longevity, but mine has been in an allergy encasement since I bought it, with a foam topper inside.

My IKEA sofa is visibly ready for new slipcovers, though.

A quality box spring or a solid platform under the mattress is definitely supposed to help. I have the latter, and in a material with just a little give. It also keeps the bed down at couch height. Our dog with the stumpy legs thinks my bed is the best thing ever and he tries to convince everyone else in the house that they should have one just like it by hopping on my bed, making significant eye contact with them and muttering in dog trying to get them to check it out.

A friend of mine said something like that. He said something like move three times to solve your clutter problems.

On the other hand, some people keep moving to bigger places...

Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/16/business/hideko-yamashita...

What she says makes sense: “It is about returning people to a state in which parting with things feels natural.”

That's the whole problem, if you're a hoarder it doesn't feel natural. Maybe you can step through the process and declutter but unless you change your brain you'll just re-accumulate.

I know someone whose mother “solves” clutter by giving things to family and friends, which is really outsourcing clutter because now your friends have the clutter problem and emotional blackmail to keep it.

When I met her, she was busy trying to gift something. In that moment I thought of the scene in Labyrinth, after Sarah eats the peach and ends up in the midden heap with the old lady who is telling Sarah to focus on her belongings. She was a lot.

I can relate to people telling me that my place is too small. It’s not that small — you just collect too much stuff.

My decluttering method, which goes with the idea of making it to feel okay to part with stuff, is to always have set aside space for everything. Outside of that space, I cannot take in any more items.

My closet has only so many hangers. If I want to buy new clothes, it must mean that I have to get rid of old ones. It helps prevent me from needlessly buying things that I don’t need and it also forces me to clean out my closet.

Essentially I am forced into a mostly constant state of zen regarding my belongings and I rarely have to declutter. It’s often easier to not first get into a bad habit than try to get out of one.

There have been occasions where I did throw away something that I needed later, but the enjoyment of having little clutter and less to clean far outweighs the rare incident of fleeting regret.

I’m the opposite. I live in the ‘burbs and have quite a bit of space, but would like even more! I really like my stuff. My favorite way to spend vacation time is to putter around my house because all around are things that make me so happy.

If I could wave a magic wand and get more space, I would double my garage space (or build a workshop out back). I’m just getting into woodworking and that can use a lot of space.

Well I'm not minimalist either. I have a full workshop with a table saw, chop saw, workbench, and many power tools. I build furniture in my garage and much of my place is my own custom furniture. But I made space for my entire workshop. Essentially I enjoy space but every bit of space is intentional and intentionally crafted. I like a space that is both highly functional for me but also beautiful.

I find it too easy to collect things before you even know what to do with it and to keep things that you no longer need. Over time, this becomes clutter.

I have a drawer where my out of season clothes go. Fall and spring are a little chaotic, but once I admit it’s too cold for short sleeves or it’s consistently warm enough for them, that settles back down. But it was a good excuse to get rid of exercise clothes that fit poorly. And I got rid of enough that I could replace a few pieces with brands that were more comfortable.

It's funny to me that both this woman and Kondo describe their methods as "The Japanese art of tidying." It's funny because if these methods were so characteristically or inherently Japanese, why would so many Japanese people themselves need so much help & training in the methods as to spawn a whole industry?

It's like calling Golang "The California programming language" or calling Newton's laws "The English art of explaining inertia." Is there really anything particularly Japanese about these women's methods or is it just Orientalist branding?

(You do see this sometimes around Brooklyn, or you used to, when Brooklyn's cultural cache was especially high.)

> Is there really anything particularly Japanese about these women's methods or is it just Orientalist branding?

I don't think these two are mutually exclusive, something can be authentically Japanese and be branded that way in particular to foreign audiences.

Kondo's "spark joy" method doesn't seem that Japanese though, if anything it seems almost made for Western audiences which isn't suprising given that she's three decades younger than Yamashita but the latter seems to genuinely have Buddhist influences, as she says herself in the article. It's probably also the reason Kondo is more popular.

But there really is a big emphasis on detachment, ephemerality and circularity in Japanese aesthetics, you can go back to writers like Tanizaki (In Praise of Shadows) and I think that comes through in the motivations that Yamashita gives for her method.

edit: and by the way the observation about Newton isn't unfair at all. English is too narrow, but philosophically Newton's deterministic and mechanical laws of motion are the geographical and philosophical product of modern European thinking. They would not have made sense in the world of Aristotle, which is why it took so long!

Japanese clutter is awesome too https://aeon.co/essays/the-life-changing-magic-of-japanese-c....

Some of my favorite parts when I visited Japan last year were the super dense specialized shops hidden away. 10 floors of vintage gaming stuff in small but hyper dense rooms, etc.

Based on my experience of just listening convos around me, danshari is the more popular method in Japan. At least, people talk about it more.

Assuming you’re addressing the “(no not that one)”, they say that cause Kondo is the famous one in the USA and the nytimes is a US based newspaper

I find it interesting that people with a lot of storage space tend to fill it with things they don’t need. My father is the king of clutter he has 500 square meters of storage filled with trash he doesn’t need. When I tell him to throw something away, he just says, “I might need it one day,” but that day never comes.

Didn't Marie Kondo refer to his book in her book?

EDIT: no it was someone else she read growing up, the book:

  The Art of Discarding by Nagisa Tatsumi

What about the zen aesthetic that came with buddhism

"Ms. Yamashita first encountered danshari during her university years in Tokyo, when she studied yoga and Buddhist teachings that emphasized letting go of attachments. After graduating [...] she began applying these principles to declutter her own home."

The modern trend and it's connection with the Buddhist teachings of letting go of worldly attachments is mentioned several times in the article. I'd say that's a step beyond the modern decluttering gurus, though they clearly and explicitly share ideological roots.

Are there any good books one can recommend on this topic?

None, that book would be another piece of clutter.

I am only half joking here, buying more stuff when you want to declutter is a bit contradictory.

Do you really need a book about decluttering? If you really think you do, or if you really love books, then go buy that book, but the idea of "I want to get into X, let's buy something" is, I think, an important source of clutter.

If you haven't read them yet, Marie Kondo's books are definitely worth it.

You have to approach them with an open mind, a willingness to act, and a genuine intention to try what she's talking about.

She really helped me remove a lot of clutter and look at order from a new perspective. I can't thank her enough.

I'm sure there are many other books on the topic, but hers was enough for me.

[stub for offtopicness]

[flagged]

> making her basically German anyway.

Huh?

> The other one is named Marie, making her basically German anyway.

Dude, it’s 麻理恵, which merely romanizes to “Marie”, and it’s very Japanese.

According to the article, Ms. Yamashita is 70 and Ms. Kondo is 40.

Why do newspapers sometimes list the person's age? The front page has a bunch of Trump stories, but none of those list his age. What criteria are they using to decide if age should be included?

Because trump has been all over front pages for a decade now and konmari hasn't?

Ok, that could make sense, but this story:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/15/world/asia/china-thailand...

is also on their front page and nobody's age is listed.

Is it because the article's purpose is to explain which of these lady's came first regardless of popularity? I don't think the articles regarding Trump are written for that purpose and so age isn't really even important context to provide. Not to mention he's so well known I don't think they would need to mention his age in every article about him, perhaps if the article was discussing age of politicians as a topic they would mention it, as context is relevant

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