Higher potassium intake at dinner linked to fewer sleep disturbances – study
nutraingredients-asia.com
nutraingredients-asia.com
But I already have k-intake.io registered, have hired a CTO for a potassium monitor wearable, app and data pipeline and am working on my pitch deck!
All that aside, almost all of the results they show are deep within statistical error bounds. My weight easily varies 5lbs (2kg) within a week, saying you lost that amount after a month of diet doesn't really say much to me. I could weigh myself a week from now and say I lost that, then one week on and say I regained it.
It sounds like there's this thing "PRAL" or "potential renal acid load" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_renal_acid_load where the affect on stomach acid can be different from a food's pH. But again, the wikipedia article links to some random people's blogs and a single research article from 2019. I'm not sure if this is well supported by research.
I don't think that's correct. Lower stomach acid pH makes the LES close more tightly, with a max around pH==3.
Having the right amount of stomach acid and low PH is crucial to keep the whole digestive system, gut motility and more running properly.
I am assuming the best thing I can do for it is lose weight, but that's easier said than done.
1) Don't drink while eating or exercising, drink 30min before or 2 hours later.
2) Don't lay on your belly while sitting, use your back to support your upper body.
3) Drink just as much water as your body asks, but not more.
4) Right before going to bed, don't drink and try using the bathroom.
In other words, good posture.
| The aim of this study was to investigate if a dietary supplementation containing: melatonin, l-tryptophan, vitamin B6, folic acid, vitamin B12, methionine and betaine would help patients with GERD,
| All patients of the group A (100%) reported a complete regression of symptoms after 40 days of treatment. On the other hand, 115 subjects (65.7%) of the omeprazole reported regression of symptoms in the same period
Afterwards I got up, went to bed, and slept like an absolute rock.
Currently, it could just be the effect of the bath itself or placebo.
Myth or Reality—Transdermal Magnesium? https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5579607/
The short story -- As of 2017 the jury is still out as to whether something like an Epsom salt bath may be beneficial because of the magnesium.
- https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4397399
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycine
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_glycinate
---
Mg also acts on GABAergic/genic systems directly, but its benefits as a general supplement on sleep are disputed.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35184264/
"Observational studies suggested an association between Mg statuses and sleep quality, while the RCTs reported contradictory findings."
Magnesium Glycinate is much less likely to be a problem in this way
I also believe I have an underlying kidney disorder that was causing all sorts of subtle problems and after researching for years decided to try potassium supplements and it relieved the acute symptoms I was having (daytime sleepiness after meals) and also a whole slew of symptoms I didn’t realize I was having (poor workout performance and recovery, constant thirst from sodium/potassium imbalance, heart palpitations, especially at night when lying in bed, temperature regulation when trying to sleep, restless legs at night, and sleep quality).
Sleep was the most surprising. I used to wake at around 3am and just couldn’t get back to sleep. I still wake up to pee, but I get right back to sleep.
The single most surprising thing is the quality of my sleep. I now sleep like a rock. So unbelievably hard. And when I wake I feel so rested and more clear headed. I don’t need to sleep as many hours anymore and feel better than when i would sleep 9 hours.
Recently several sleep studies started talking about how sleep is not a passive activity, but a ‘washing’ of CSF over your brain. I could get some details wrong since I am going off of memory, but I believe the amount of CSF movement and production basically triples when you sleep. I hypothesize that this is simply your bodies way of cleaning the waste products out of your brain. Do you know what precursors are to create CSF? Electrolytes like sodium, potassium, chloride, and bicarbonate. It is my hypothesis that I was ‘using up’ all the potassium available with the first couple of sleep cycles and once it was gone I was unable to effectively create more CSF, rendering my sleep ineffective.
All I need to take is a couple of 99mg tablets right before bed (along with some magnesium chloride) and I sleep like I did when I was 10. I am 57. To say it has transformed my life would be an understatement.
Do you have any additional information about this relationship between CSF and electrolyte deficiency? Do you know anything about possible upstream causes of electrolyte deficiency? Any pointers would be super helpful.
I have read no studies that link CSF production with electrolyte deficiencies. This is a hypothesis of my own with no backing, so take it for what it is worth. Having said that, there have been many posts on HN on the recent studies on CSF https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39723704. I made the connection with CSF production and electrolytes when I was reading more about CSF production and it jumped off the page at me that potassium and other electrolytes are used to create CSF. It all just came together for me why taking potassium has helped me so much.
Have you been checked for diabetes? The thirst is one of the bigger symptoms.
I'll try the potassium supplements and report back. Around how much are you supplementing each day? People shy away from potassium supplementation because it can cause heart palpitations, but I already have those, similar to yours, and RDA of potassium is over 3000mg, so it's only up from here :) Thanks again.
Fortunately for me I was able to retire at 50 and I am an avid consumer of information, so I spent an inordinate amount of time educating myself. I went down many wrong paths (as another commenter pointed out, diabetes can cause a lot of these symptoms). I wish I could say I brute forced my solution, but it was some innocuous comment on HN about potassium deficiency that made me look into it, and the rest is history. It was my “break through”, so to speak.
I take anywhere from 600mg to 800mg most days spread throughout the day depending on meals and activity level, but as much as 1000mg some days. Never all at once.
On a related note, here is the thing about measuring electrolytes – your body goes through great efforts to make sure your electrolyte levels in your blood are in balance. But here is the kicker, only sodium ‘primarily’ resides in your blood. The other electrolytes primarily reside in your other tissues. For example, potassium is mostly held inside your cells like muscle tissue. As a matter of fact, this is how muscles contract. When muscles contract, potassium temporarily moves out of the cell and sodium moves in. Then in a minute potassium and sodium reverse back to normal. This is one reason your muscles fatigue and then become usable again a short time later. When your cells are short potassium then your muscles fatigue quickly and don’t bounce back.
You can’t measure this level of potassium. Your blood levels might be just fine, but your cells may be deficient and you will never know. It is the same with calcium and magnesium (bone). If you ever get a blood test and your electrolytes are off, you probably need to be in the hospital. It means shit is so bad that your body has lost its ability to compensate. But it also means that if you go to the doctor and get your electrolytes tested, they will likely be in the normal range, but that does not mean you aren’t deficient.
I see what you mean regarding the electrolyte measurements. After reading a bit about the disorders that you mentioned, it seems like they test for serum and excreted electrolyte levels to make a diagnosis. But based on your point above, these tests can be inconclusive. Were there certain diagnostic tests that were helpful to you in coming to your conclusion, or was it largely trial and error based on symptom management?
I have toyed with the idea of visiting a nephrologist, but I just can’t psych myself up for the long slog that would be. I live in a fairly large city but given the rarity of these syndromes, it would not surprise me at all if any local nephrologists have even encountered anyone with one of these conditions. I have also considered seeing a ‘functional doctor’, but just have not gone down that road. Honestly, I seem to have my symptoms under control, so what they could add at this point? There is no treatment or cure for this, only managing symptoms (assuming this is what I have, to be fair).
It all makes sense to me though. Though this is something that got bad enough for me to make a concerted effort to figure out just in the last decade, if I reflect back on my life I have seen problems associated with it back into my 20’s. In my case, I don’t think it is something that “happened” to me, but something I was born with that is just progressing as I get older.
By the way, I was re-reading a comment of yours from up above and I realized that you were referring to heart palpitations like you were already getting too much potassium. Here is the thing – you can get heart palpations from too much AND too little potassium. Also from too little calcium. Just food for thought.
I have updated my profile with my contact info. If you ever go down the route of getting diagnosed or have any other questions, feel free to contact me anytime. Good luck!
In my case I believe it is caused by an undiagnosed kidney problem loosely called ‘salt-wasting syndrome’. There are many types, but they all revolve around a genetic disorder where the tubules in your kidneys that are responsible for removing different electrolytes from the urine and retaining them are malformed and are not able to keep the electrolytes like a normal kidney does. Here are a few I found in my research:
-Bartters Syndrome- https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/bartters-syndrome/
Many different variants, so this is a possibility. Type 5?
-------------------------
-Gitelman syndrome- https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/8547/gitelman-syn... Symptoms include tingling of face
————————
Fanconi Syndrome https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/kidney-and-urinary-tract-d...
I my particular case, I believe I have a type that does not impact sodium, but does potassium. When I eat a high sodium meal it causes me to pee a lot to try to get the my sodium levels back to normal. However, my body can’t retain potassium when it does this (and since I was eating much more sodium and much less potassium than my body required) I end up with normal sodium levels but low potassium levels. Taking potassium a few hours after a meal “fixed” this.
Short of genetic issue like this I am not sure what could cause it. I think this can be an early symptom of Diabetes, but don’t know much about that. What I am talking about here has got to be rare, so it may not be applicable to you.
Just another anecdote – when reading some of these links it made me remember another interesting symptom I used to have that I did not know was related: I would get “facial numbness”. Specifically, my lips and the immediate surrounding area would feel slightly numb. Usually in the morning after a poor night of sleep. I would remember feeling this on the way to work in the car. It would contribute to that dazed feeling I felt like I would swimming through a mental fog.
Oh, and one more! I also don’t get nearly so hung over from drinking! This was a surprise for me. I have always drank a lot of water while drinking alcohol, but I would always have the worst drained feeling the next day with such a headache. The headache would last all day. However, if I now take some potassium while drinking and throughout the night (depending on how much I drink), I often don’t have much of a hangover. This amazes me! I am 57 and used to drink a lot when I was in my 20’s. I had some friends that could be normal the next day and it always blew my mind. Now I think I know why. They have normal kidneys!
I check my A1C every six months and I'm ok. I'm in decent shape also: regularly powerlifting, running, etc. I have a suspicion that there is a genetic component for me; there are some autoimmune issues in my family that haven't been attributed to a particular disorder and there is a chance of an underlying condition causing these autoimmune-like symptoms.
I don't think I've noticed facial numbness, but my limbs fall asleep quickly and my hands fall asleep if I am reading my phone/book while lying on my back after a couple minutes. I also drink a TON of water when drinking alcohol and am hungover for days afterwards. Since my electrolyte revelation, I started knocking back pedialyte before sleeping which helped a ton.
Been doing this for a lot of years now.
Edit, here's a paper by some other researchers: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0963748012005760...
You basically need to be careful with any supplement since it's unregulated, and need to do a lot of careful diligence. It's a good sign if they are honest about their supplier and you trace back their supply chain. E.g. for many chelated supplements (zinc included), if you see a TRAACS trademark then the source is Balchem (Albion) which to my understanding is fairly well regarded.
ConsumerLabs tested one such TRAACS product and found it to be 0.1 mcg/g cadmium, so likely most products using TRAACS zinc bisglycinate formulation should be similar. I also found some EU food safety application [1] which confirms that across 3 different manufacturers of zinc bisglycinate (one of which is Albion), all samples were < 0.1mcg/g
[1] https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa....
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/magnesium
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/magnesium-types#9-Magne...
Citrate causes me to have too soft of stools. Glycinate is often recommended for sleep, but for me it has the opposite effect – it wires me. I have tried taurine, malinate, and threonate, but chloride just works the best for me.
Electrolytes do ‘wear off’ in the sense that they are constantly depleted by your body, even when everything is working well. I have come up with the metaphor that electrolytes are like gas and oil in your car. They are constantly used up and need to be replenished. This is normal.
The good news is that I noticed the difference immediately!
Now I need to find a proper supplement in Germany. Most electrolytes that also have the recommended amounts of glucose contain artificial sweetener which is a big no-go for daily usage for me.
I experience muscle cramps. (Not restless leg syndrome. It's complicated.)
For others, be aware that magnesium supplements come in many forms. I don't tolerate magnesium citrate, the most common over the counter option. Tummy issues. After trying a handful of options, I chose magnesium glycine; no adverse effects and reasonable price.
This is not medical advice. YMMV. Consult your doctors.
Is this a typo, or something more nefarious?
From the abstract:
Multiple regression analyses revealed that individuals with higher AIS scores had higher daily potassium intake
Multiple regression analysis indicated that individuals with a higher potassium intake had lower AIS scores.> The sleep disturbances were assessed using the Athens Insomnia Scale [ 19], a self-administered psychometric questionnaire designed to evaluate sleep disorders, particularly insomnia [ 20 ]. It consists of eight items rated on a Likert scale ranging from 0 “no problem at all” to 3 “very severe” [ 20]. The total score ranges from 0 (absence of any sleep-related problems) to 24 (the most severe degree of insomnia). Severity is classified as normal for scores of 3 or less, subclinical insomnia for scores of greater than 3 but less than 6, and clinical insomnia for scores of 6 or more [19,21,22].
> [...] Results: Multiple regression analyses revealed that individuals with higher AIS scores had higher daily potassium intake; potassium at dinner was especially crucial. [...]
and section 3.2:
> 3.2. Association Between AIS Score and Dietary Patterns of Sodium and Potassium > Multiple regression analysis was conducted to investigate the association between AIS scores and dietary patterns of sodium and potassium intake (Table 3). Total daily potassium intake was inversely associated with log AIS score (β = −0.036; p = 0.034). When intake at each meal (breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks) was analyzed separately, only potassium intake at dinner remained significantly associated with AIS score (β = −0.066; p = 0.003), suggesting that higher potassium intake at dinner may be linked to fewer sleep disturbances. No significant associations were observed for the sodium-to-potassium ratio.
I mean it's a very short paper, and the main findings are repeated, so not like it's buried.
Having said that, don’t be a dumb-a* and take too much of a good thing.
Also the RDA is not something you should have all at once. That’s a sure way to disrupt your heart.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22416-heart-p...
For what it’s worth, it’s actually nothing.
Usually had it with a hot curry at dinner time or dessert (sliced bananas, cubed apples and evaparoted milk.)
the oil gets 'dirty' from extended use in frying. Why is it dirty? It's not dirt, and it's not oil breakdown (in most cases).
The oil is drawing components from the food into itself.
Forget the frying for a second; most fries are parboiled or blanched -- this also leeches material away from the vegetable, this time it leaves with the water used for blanching.
A french fry is delicious, but it's different than a potato -- even if it's made from one.
Elements can’t get lost in a chemical reaction. You can only change the molecule they’re part of, so it might not be processable by the human body, but the potassium isn’t going to disappear.
The fact that the element cannot physically vanish into thin air is not really relevant here
> Why would something being an element mean that heating it as part of a food wouldn’t act as a catalyst for some chemical interaction?
It sounds like the person thinks that chemical reactions can make elements change/disappear, which is not the case. And I specifically mentioned the Oil removing the potassium as an option.
And once that's done, The Sims has almost loaded.
The only myth is that bananas are a unique source of potassium. A lot of foods have similar or more amounts of potassium per serving or by weight.
A potato’s a meal. A banana’s a lightish snack.
No carbs, no sugars, no fiber induced bloating, could easily get more than 100g into a meal
My understanding is potassium also competes with salt in the body
The surprising bit is how far you can get into a meal that looks right before you realise it really is not.
I sometimes buy evaporated because it is a big time-saver, but never sweetened condensed because it's quick and easy to add sugar myself, and leaves me in control of how much relative to the other ingredients.
Both are thicker, creamier, and even sweeter than milk - because even without the added sugar the natural sweetness of the milk is concentrated by the reduction, removing all that water.
Learned it from first hand experience.
As someone scoring 12, it's pretty bad and I am suffering a lot while trying to sleep and during day time because I did not sleep well.
If my understanding of statistics, standard deviations and the standardized partial regression coefficient are correct, potassium supplementation in the evening only DECREASES this score by about 0.2178 (Beta −0.066, multiplied with SD of 3.3), which is kinda worthless.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
It is not worthless. For good sleep, potassium levels have to be adequate. Once one improves the level, one can move on to other factors.
As for what works for me, avoiding caffeine after 12 pm helps, as does sunlight exposure in the daytime.
With regard to a supplement stack, these help: collagen hydrolysate 12g, magnesium citrate, calcium, B6 as P5P, melatonin 4 mg, L-theanine 100-200 mg, and various sleep promoting herbs.
Ensure your BP is optimal, well below 120/80 for most people under 70.
Uncorrected acid reflux too worsens sleep, but avoiding consumption in the last three hours and also famotidine help.
Yes DECREASE instead of INCREASE. What I was going for in my head was "improve" I guess. Thanks for pointing that out.
> B6 as P5P
Don't forget it's one of the few nutrients that accumulates and that you can get too much of. It causes nerve damage and mystery sores.
> melatonin 4 mg
That's probably too much:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E4cKD9iTWHaE7f3AJ/melatonin-...
Regarding melatonin, newer data up to 2024 in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38888087/ confirms that 4 mg is an optimal dose for sleep. For a discussion, search for this article on r/FoodNerds.
https://toolonline.net/en/AIS, https://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-content/documents...
Re-Balancing One Essential Nutrient to Protect against Stroke:
If anything, increase the number of hours without eating before bed.
A recent one:
- https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.10168
Many, many more
A news article should be compared to another news article, not to a journal article. A journal article can however be compared with another journal article.
I understand that the journal article you linked might be superior.
Also, there is a correlation between potassium and magnesium levels, and they measured potassium intake, but no mention of magnesium. It is possible that the subjects with highest potassium intake also had higher magnesium levels.
I'm not saying the study is wrong, but it does make a good point to the people taking magnesium to help sleep, they should also be taking potassium. I'll be trying that over the next little bit.
Some dietary studies are little better, some worse, but even the best, are very weak.
It’s known (from other studies, yes the irony) that people have no idea what they eat. Forget, don’t pay attention… so is difficult to draw conclusions. Also diet habits correlate to so many other habits, that is difficult to know what helps and what doesn’t.
Often is posted just a journalist view of it, not even the study (like this case) that is another red flag. Means that the article title is probably not so interesting.
Last but not least, being a forum of mainly CS nerds, you have to really weed through the comments. When speaking about law many start with “not a lawyer but” but seldom I see “not a doctor, but”. I’ve just seen too often people very opinionated about medicine topics of which they have no idea. Luckily is relatively easy to detect, but can be very misleading. The less the people know about something, the more sure they are they know it all. I need to state the obvious: never ever take medical advice at face value from HN.
As I'm sure all know, K in supplemental form is FDA regulated and one would need to take up to 1/2 a bottle to reach the RDA, whereas in salt sub form a single, unpleasant serving can get close to the RDA. I think it's in chloride form...
Edit: fsckin android keypad
1/4 tsp of potassium bicarbonate powder in 8 oz of water,
200 mg L-theanine,
30 minutes of a podcast,
while choices and not sleep:
choice = choices.pop(0)
take_choice(choice)
wait(25 * 60)(After the um actually quiz show)